Here is an interesting email exchange from July 27, 2009. I had to cut and paste it so you didn’t have to start at the bottom and read up. As many of you will recall, during that time Helen Dagner had a website devoted to the OCCK crimes. The case was also “discussed” on Topix back when that forum allowed this type of “discussion,” and I will also be posting some pages from that website. As I said, I copied off thousands of pages of material when I knew my computer was being hacked. I am also a big fan of screen shots to document some of the stuff I have received. Not everyone who comments or contacts me is on the up and up. No surprise there.
This email exchange is some three years into having some sense of the gaslighting process being used by law enforcement here, and a year-plus since we learned the name of Christopher Busch. As you will read, I was immensely frustrated by this point. The print is small, but I hope you can read it. The quotes from law enforcement from back in the day are illuminating. I don’t think it’s just a few of us who see this stuff and ask questions. But, back then nobody asked any questions. Law enforcement had complete control of the narrative. Turns out they are not good narrators.
Thank you for the clippings Cathy. After reading all of Helen’s posts, i know she felt Hastings was the OCCK and i just feel somehow this bastard is involved some way. Its just too much of a coincidence that he lived around the corner from Busch. I have read all of your postings and thank you for keeping us updated on the case. I always pray and send my love to you and your family and the other familes of the kids. As long as i live, I will never forget the OCCK killings. I do believe that DNA, Gunnells and the license plate of the car that the hypnotized man saw in the Drug Store parking lot are the best leads in this case. I read he only remembered 222 from the license plate but, I still believe there has to be a record somewhere of the vehicles Busch, Hastings, Greene and Sloan had during that time period along with the plate information. Thank you again! Jeremy
You are right, Jeremy. And thank you for your kind words, too. I dare anyone to do a Google Map search of 3310 Morningview Terrace (Busch home) and 200 Tuckahoe (Hastings), both in Bloomfield, MI, and then try to convince me that these two losers didn’t know each other.
And I would like to clarify that when law enforcement interviewed John Hastings again (previously in 1977, then 1992) in July 2008, he gave a DNA sample. He agreed to a polygraph–just Mr. Agreeable in the transcript of the interview, but I don’t think this polygraph ever happened.
I think he panicked and called and canceled?
It wasn’t a dinner reservation. But I’m sure no one followed up or called him on it. No DNA match–what a relief! One less child trafficker to look at.
I agree a lot with you, Jeremy. I think Greg Greene was not in jail & he and CB abducted TK. I think they passed the kids around and TL was involved. When giving my opinion before, I always thought the results of Doug Wilson’s hypnotization were paramount to get resolve. The FBI or MSP has to know who owned the LeMans with the 222 license plate.
I also think the kids were taken at random & TK being the only one that is known to have gone willingly. I’ve always also taken the position that it was a fluke that (with the exception of TK) the abduction sights were all in different jurisdictions. Woodward runs far and across one block or street puts you in a different city, the perps just got lucky.
#justicenow
Crimebuffy, I don’t believe Tim is known to have gone willingly. In fact, by that time kids were well schooled in yelling and running. I believe he was grabbed quickly but not willingly. The parking lot, especially if it was not busy is or was rather secluded in the back part and Tim could have been snatched without much noticeable ruckus at that time of night.
HI Cathy: In your brother’s case I truly believe it was a cover-up. Do you believe it was C. Busch who murdered your brother? Or do you believe it was the pedofile ring that Lamborgine and his ugly co-horts that were responsible. Or do you think this ring included C. Busch and all of them worked together on killing the four OCCK children? I just spoke to a friend who is in his 70’s. He mentioned that in the 50’s he would hitch hike up and down Woodward to get back and forth to his caddy job at a golf course. When he was telling me about guys who would stop to give him a ride that would ultimately try to make a play by rubbing his leg or inviting him to a party, it right away, made me think of OCCK and the pedofile rings. I thought – I bet Woodward Ave. in Oakland County was quite the avenue for drivers with devious intent to drive up and down looking for prospects for pedophile activity or child abductions. I now wonder how many incidents there were on Woodward during the 50’s – 70’s and even now. Just a thought. You have Royal Oak, Ferndale and other communities that are today bustling with gays. Maybe these communities were established since the 50’s for being hot spots. Woodward Ave is also a straight gate smack dab into Detroit and one block from seedy Cass Corridor. It crosses 8 Mile to Pontiac. I bet there were a lot of secrets coming off of Woodward Ave. Don’t forget about 6 Mile and Woodward too. Lots of money in that area too where big big names live. Woodward Ave now starts to look different to me. Your thoughts?
Jessie Kanehl
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I haven’t lived in Detroit for 50 years. But when I was a student at Cass and later at Wayne State I traveled by car up and down Woodward a million times. My, how things have changed. There were around three acknowledged gay guys in my graduating class at Cass Tech and NONE at Wayne State but now they are crawling all over Royal Oak and Ferndale. That’s FINE! It’s just that it is shocking to see how much was hidden back then.
I will post separately on who I think is involved.
Hell, I never considered that. I only got back into this thing after the advent of the internet. A youtube suggestion back in 2012? made me google what I now know as OCCK. It’s been staring me in the face all this time. I was under the impression Busch ‘killed’ himself a mere 8 months after Tim. Not 19. I didn’t realize the calendar rolled over another year. I DO remember those quotes about being dead or in an institution, but I never assigned any significance to them. Busch had plenty of time to be in a European loony bin and return in time to commit ‘suicide’. And I know one thing, if I’M gonna suicide, I’m using a large caliber handgun, not some pathetic .22 that could maim me instead. Perhaps the ‘suicide helpers’ only had the rifle at hand. But even then, I’d use the shotgun to be sure it killed me. Perhaps he made admissions/confessions to some European shrink. Be nice if one of those surviving Busch kids would give you a DNA sample. I know I would, were my dead brother a suspect. I think closure for the families would be a tad more important than whatever minor discomfort I may receive.
I applaud you for deciding that if your brother was a suspect you would still donate a DNA sample. I’ll go you one better. If I knew my sibling committed murder I would still support the death penalty.
It appears right from the start that the victim’s families were never going to get “closure”. What the hell does that mean…really mean? (Answers to the why, when, who, and how are just a few steps towards closure) Justification is the biggest part of the closure process.
You may be underestimating what’s important to people cut like the Busch family. They were connected and untouchable as were most high ranking GM execs. My aunt was murdered by her husband that held one of those upper positions at GM back in the late 60’s early 70’s, and he got away with it. Although he beat the shit out of her and the children on the regular, he was never suspected by the good ole boys of Oakland County.
The surviving Busch brother has two sons that alleged sex abuse from uncle Chris.
Busch’s brother wanted witness protection for their family if they participated with LE. Protection from? That’s quite a statement and is very telling as to how vast the evil is in Michigan and across the world.
Just to clarify, the nephews that alleged sexual abuse by Chris Busch were the sons of the late John Busch. They lived in Flint and Uncle Chris was allowed to take them and their friends on numerous outings. I believe one of the nephews recently passed away. Charles Busch has one son and he explained in the interview I read that he was aware of some of Chris’ problems and he and his wife never let Chris and their son be alone. Good move.
Thank you for clarifying the Busch family dynamic…didn’t have my facts straight on that for sure.
What kind of family that knew Chris had a problem with young boys would let him near any of his nephews??? I read that allegedly the mother of Chris Busch would go around and pay off his victims. What kind of family would do this??? Cathy, I believe your family has solved this case with the exception of a few unknowns. Cant believe how horribly your family has been treated by Oakland County and law enforcement in Michigan.
Astonishing, but like I’ve written here before, Detroit felt so dicey to me at age 18 that I got out and never went back.
Lance, Charles Busch, Christopher Busch’s only living nuclear family member, provided a DNA sample when he was interviewed by the FBI. No match to what they had tested thus far. In fact, there has been no match between the 14 or so (whatever the MSP’s number is) suspects and the evidence. When you consider the evidence retrieval (e.g., Mark’s body was covered at the drop scene with a dirty blanket), the sloppy way evidence was stored (two hairs found on Tim, described as a mustache hair and a pubic hair were misfiled for decades as “animal hairs”), and the Oakland County Medical Examiner’s utter incompetence, this is no surprise. They treat the lack of a DNA match to the shitty evidence they have like the Gremlin tip from March 1977–if the suspect didn’t drive or have access to a Gremlin, the cops just moved on. I have been told very recently by someone who knows, that none of the tips or evidence has been digitized by the MSP. I bet if we took a field trip to their fucking evidence storage for this case and saw how they do business and the old boxes of paper that make no sense, it would break our hearts. The shame wafting off of that storage locker, containing Mark’s jacket, Jill’s bike, Kristine’s boots and Tim’s skateboard, along with the remnants of this joke of an investigation must be pretty intense.
I’m sure you’re right that it must be a g.d’ed mess, but with DNA technology advancing faster that we can talk I’ll bet that it won’t be long, or maybe it’s a reality now, that science can parse out all that mess and come up with answers that are accurate.
Then he did the honorable thing. I was unaware anyone in the family provided a sample. And I’ve only know since either yours or your dad’s blog that the Gremlin was not involved. 5 or 6 years. Those jagoffs had us running from blue Gremlins. A car as ubiquitous as the Corolla was in the 1980s.
Pulaski County in Arkansas (Little Rock) under Dr. Fahmy Malik was just as corrupt/incompetent as Oakland. So it’s definitely not isolated.
And Busch drove a blue Vega with a white hockey stripe.
So blatantly homophobic are your insinuations whether you realize it or not. For your information, the majority of pedophiles are in fact heterosexual.
Yes, thank you, I meant to comment on the fact that homosexuality is NOT pedophelia and that all of the research I have read confirms that most pedophiles are heterosexual.
You’re welcome, Cathy.
I want to reiterate that there should be absolutely no confusion about pedophiles–most are heterosexual. Someone sent me a link about an interview with some old, piece of shit pedophile. He explained that it was easier to find boys, because the neighbors would let him take their sons camping, but would never let their daughters go with some neighborhood man. Pedophiles are often married, with kids. Part of their sickness is overpowering a child–someone who may not even be believed if s/he comes forward. Don’t conflate homosexuality with pedophelia. And don’t for a minute think that a child predator intent on murder wouldn’t settle for a victim of either sex.
I just wanted to be clear that I was responding to Jkaneh & Bitamoney’s posts.
One interesting point about the case in general.
From Wikipedia
“Jill Robinson, 12, of Royal Oak, packed a backpack and ran away from her home on Wednesday, December 22, 1976, following an argument with her mother over dinner preparations. The day after her disappearance, her bicycle was found behind a hobby store on Main Street in that city.”
So it seems extremely likely she was abducted by somebody who knew she had run away.
The chances of her being abducted coincidentally almost the exact day she ran away are astronomical.
That would point to either somebody she knew or somebody involved in searching for her.
I disagree. The fact that she left her Mom’s house to ride her bike to her Dad’s house put her out on the street around dinner time–so probably after dark. Another reader messaged me a few years ago that when she was young a car slowly approached her while she was riding her bike. Although the bike and the car never touched, a man jumped out of the car and said “We’ve had an accident! Let me make sure you are ok.” She took off.
More importantly, after Jill’s body was found on December 26, police located a boy who was or had been in possession of Jill’s bike. He may have ditched the bike behind the hobby store. He reported he found the bike in the area of 13 mile and Woodward, which would likely be the abduction point.
This boy, now man, has posted on other forums and may read this. Can you weigh in?
And let’s not forget that the animal Chris Busch tells investigators when he is arrested in Flint for raping many boys in January 1977 that admits to police that he is a pedophile, likes boys between the ages of 12 and 14. When asked where he would go to find boys, he replied near the American Legion Hall in Ferndale, 13 and Woodward, and the area right by Hartfield’s Bowling Alley and the 7-11 party store. Yeah, in that order. Where Mark, Jill and Kristine were abducted. This was two weeks before my brother was abducted.
Furthermore, sadly, the Royal Oak cops took the approach that Ferndale took with Mrs. Stebbins–don’t worry, he will show up. We haven’t had a kidnapping here in over a decade. Nobody “knew” Jill had run away. She was presumably off on her bike, attempting to ride to her Dad’s house in Birmingham. She was abducted by a stranger or strangers in a car. This is beyond debate if you ask me. A MSP state lab report dated March 20, 2009 (after the Busch house was processed) indicates that the lab was again looking at fiber evidence “found to be yellowish fibers reportedly found on victims Timothy King and Jill Robinson.” These yellowish fibers link Jill and Tim. Jill did not get abducted by someone who knew the family, if that’s where you are going.
I’ve read these clips before on this site (thank your Cathy, for posting this information) and the incredible brazen-stupidity of law enforcement still shocks me.
Tobin and Robertson describes pretty much exactly what happened with Busch and simply use that narrative as a “possible explanation” for the killer (Busch) suddenly going missing/killings stopped (stashed away by a rich family in a mental institution or on house arrest). “Hey, it sounds good and it’s the 1970s, nobody will ever be able to find out what truly happened and what we did!”.
Law enforcement did it, because they could. Those fools never expected that years later, their BS, sloppy “investigation” and cover-up would be found out. Well…oops!
This disgusting sham and cover-up is so blindingly obvious…”We’re Oakland County! We could NEVER possibly have this happen in our safe, family friendly county! We need families to continue to move in and companies to do business here. Take the money from the rich family, turn a blind eye, let it get shoved under the rug and let’s continue on with our sham over happy hour cocktails after work!”.
Disgusting. Sloppy. Unforgivable.
Oh yeah, and as others have pointed out, these well though out and reassuring comments make your blood pressure rise with how weak they are…
“I’d live to see that bastard in jail”…Wow, really!?! No shit! As opposed to wanting to see him kill more kids??? Insightful!
“But if we never solve these murders…preventing another abduction…would be our goal”…Nice job is essentially waiving the white flag of defeat without saying in outright. Because you knew the case was f*caked.
It makes me so sad and embarrassed that I live in a state and metropolitan area that had/has idiots like this “protecting” people.
I agree 100%! If Busch had been a Pontiac resident, and his father was just a factory worker, this would’ve been a different outcome. LB Patterson could not stand the city of Pontiac and stated it many times. The shit that came out of his mouth while slamming back all those drinks he had in the good old days was quite telling.
Matt, this case has become a festering sore in the side of society. There are times when a whole population will have become one organism. That’s what makes for revolutions. It makes for a bastion that is kill-proof and won’t give up. We have that phenomenon here.
Interesting thing Cathy, I was a student at OCC Royal Oak back in the mid 80’s, and my english professor was Tom Robinson (Jill’s Father). Tom is a wonderful guy and a great professor but, I will always remember the first night of class he introduced himself and said his daughter was a victim of the OCCK and he never mentioned it again. I cannot imagine the pain he feels but, i never understood why he didnt talk about it and through the years it seems like only your family is willing to do the research and talk to the media and the public. I could never understand why the other familes didnt come forward.
Actually, I think that was a beautiful way for him to handle it. He knew people knew who he was and what happened to his daughter, so he introduced himself, acknowledged his daughter and what happened to her and then devoted the semester to teaching what he was passionate about. As a friend I know who is a professor says, you can enjoy your students but you can’t be friends with them because part of your job involves telling them when they suck. Jill’s parents, Tom and Carol, went to the media after my brother was murdered to complain about the lack of attention to their daughter’s case. That was a very brave thing to do–NO ONE questioned the cops back then. News was not 24/7. The media bowed to the task force. I will find the article. Their points were very valid. I have at times wondered if a cop or two went to Tom with information about how the killer(s) were “taken care of” to keep him quiet. Probably not. The cops would talk to people in bars about this stuff, but not the parents.
Mark’s mom, Ruth Stebbins, spoke to the press quite a bit when the other kids were abducted and murdered. She was very gracious and honest.
Kristine’s family has spoken out since 2005 and found information behind the scenes.
When I learned that retired Det./Sgt. Jack Kalbfleisch’s concerns were being ignored and rejected by the 2005 “task force” (he had been on the initial task force and done a lot of work on the Le Mans angle), saw how others were being treated who came forward with information, learned what we did from Patrick Coffey about Larry Wasser, went to police and then my Dad got jerked around by the MSP, we had no choice but to go public. Any one of you would have done the same thing.
At the end of the day, Mark was a little brother, Jill was a big sister, Kris was a big sister and Tim was a little brother. I don’t think any of us can put ourselves in the shoes of a parent in this situation. As a sibling, I felt isolated and alone, unable to even mourn, let alone grieve. I could not stay in Michigan. Every day for those parents was/is a Herculean effort to live life with dignity after such a violation.
I think about H. Lee Busch “preserving the family name,” while the rest of us walked around like zombies and had to find a way to function in life without harming others and trying to add something to society. Everyone knew our names. Few people consoled us.; many had to look away. The cops fucked us all over, but they gave H. Lee and his family a pass. He didn’t have to go anywhere and introduce himself as the father of a monster.
And members of all four families participated in the filming of the documentary Children of the Snow. As important as it was to participate, trust me, it came at an extremely heavy emotional cost.
What is interesting and profound is that with all the Protecting, all the enforced Cooperation from LE and others, the truth about the Busch Family has come out and been out in spades, for all to see. They lost their bid for “preserving the family name”.
If she had not really ‘run away’, then you are probably right, but a lot of ‘facts’ in cases like this vary from one source to another. The Wikipedia sources are books so no easy way to check them.
Regarding Busch and others, it looks a lot like the investigation of the Zodiac killer. In that case there were indications the killer was a soldier or cop, and consequently extremely convincing evidence developed on a bunch of possible suspects. If you research that case there are several, four or five, people, against whom there is enough evidence to make them very strong suspects. The appearance being that the ‘suspects’ were overdeveloped to misdirect the case, not to help solve it.
Specifically in this kind of case, the Oakland County Child Murders, it looks like the kind of person who would work as a cop. Somebody who would tie up their victim for days or weeks would not work as a cashier at 7/11.
Recently there was the case of David W. Frodsham, deputy garrison commander of United States Army Garrison Humphreys, the largest U.S. military installation in the world. That looks like a major case but it got gag ordered and only reported in one newspaper.
There are actually quite a few large networks of that kind of thing among ‘powerful’ groups. Epstein was unprosecutable, Jimmy Saville in the UK likewise, ongoing human trafficking by ‘private security firms’ that have high level government connections also etc.
So, my bet would be that it was the guy who owned that island, Shelden, backed by a network of people with the ability to influence/undermine the investigation.
I disagree too. I think she had the exceedingly bad luck to encounter HIM. Or THEM.
The above comment by me was supposed to reply to WALTER but this system put it down here.
I have now left comments about Helen D. three times and they never show up. What’s up with that?
I perform no voodoo on comments—did not x them. There are a few people I have blocked, but you are not one of them. You have my email. Send me the comments and I will post for you.
1312 Mayfield to Tiny Tim’s Hobby Shop is quite a distance for a 12 yo to cover, especially at night. Even on a bike. And the long stretch is Woodward. She was easily visible to the traveling pedos. And had to pass a couple of somewhat seedy motels. I wonder what she was thinking trying to make it to her father’s at that hour. Hell, 12 Mile to Birmingham was something I wouldn’t even consider at night in the cold. And she wasn’t abducted almost the exact day she ran away, she was abducted less than 2 HOURS after she ran away. Her bike was found BEHIND Tiny TIm’s. Ain’t nobody gonna notice it in the dark. And, like Hunter-Maple pharmacy, Tiny Tim’s had a rear exit as well, I think.
I have commented before and wanted to put this here again. I lived a few blocks from 13 mile road and one morning on my way to school (1976 or 77?) I was walking to my friends house to walk with him to school. It was winter. On the corner of Chester Rd and Hampton Rd in Royal Oak, there were 2 men that were dressed as women who tried to stop me and ask directions. I took off as fast as I could and didn’t look back. I told me friend and told the school principal. Looking back, I believe it was Busch and Greene, although I couldn’t see their faces but one was big and one was slender.
My question is: how did they know I would walk that route? I was an only child and that corner is about 12 houses from Woodward. I feel like there had to be an informant of some sort.
I have left a message at the hot line with no return call.
Thank you for the post, Mike. You won’t get a call back. That I can almost guarantee. But this is proof of what a cesspool Oakland County really was.