That is what a Michigan State Police spokesperson said, off camera, to Heather Catallo of WXYZ Detroit concerning Marney Keenan’s well-researched and documented book, The Snow Killings: Inside the Oakland County Child Killer Investigation.
This is part one of a two-part series. The segment airs again tonight at 11 pm EST and you can live stream it or download the WXYZ app and watch for free at 11 pm. Go to “Sections” on the app and scroll down to “Live Video”.
Part two airs tomorrow at 6 and 11 pm.
No one from the MSP had the balls to appear on camera. This time they didn’t even throw down the “can’t comment on open cases” excuse. No, this time it was: “We don’t comment on fiction.”
This case MUST be taken from the state police and given to an agency that is not hellbent on protecting the fiction they created when they shut down this case in 1978. Help me figure out a way to get this done. They are doing what they do best–doubling down and fucking with people. They will never make this right.
Expect some lying on tomorrow night’s segment. You can bet on it.
32 thoughts on ““We don’t comment on fiction.””
That’s just nauseating. I’m just about to start reading my copy of the book and don’t consider it fiction at all. I wouldn’t have bought it if it was.
Unprofessional …I ordered my copy of the book
I have read this book and referred it to so many people. I was skeptical at first mainly because so many big shot writers use these cases to build up conspiracy theories in their books and almost always use a lot of opinions. I saw none of that in her book. Snow Killings was written very professionally. The opinions that were wrote into the book that I saw were more less comments made by victims families, police officer, and detective cory williams. This book cleared up so much stuff in this case. Clearly MSP HEARD book and assumed it was fiction. You know what they say about assuming…. You make ASS out of U&ME
I’m not sure they assumed it was fiction as much as creating their own narrative about it. Figures lie and liars figure.
Fiction? The deception/cover ups are able to be proven.
I’ve always found it odd that Bob Robertson is on the record during an interview on Winters Fear when asked what are things he would have done different he stated, Administrative Changes.” Hmm, your appointees not the Cracker Jack detectives you hoped for!?
Its disgraceful, the Michigan State Police are no better in 2020 than they were in 1976/1977.
The sad part is that I dont trust the FBI either. I know its been mentioned before but, if you can get Dana Nessel or even Governor Whittmer involved maybe they can put pressure where it is needed.
Both agencies screwed the hoffa investigation too. Don’t forget that Hoffa lived in Michigan and disappeared in Michigan.
That comment regarding “fiction” was both unprofessional and insulting to the memories of these children. Obviously some people aren’t very bright at the MSP department of public relations. Of course there aren’t many government agencies anywhere ran by bright people. So.
I will take issue with one of Marney’s statements as well although she’s clearly on the right side of this. When she says “we know Busch is involved but we aren’t sure how,” I think that statement is in excess of the facts unless she knows a lot of details we don’t, which may be the case.
Busch was clearly a piece of shit and I have no sympathy for him. But I’ve studied this case intently for over 30 years and while I’ve read a lot of conjecture and even some items that seem to have some evidentiary value, I’ve never seen anything that conclusively links Busch to these crimes. I find it quite a leap to pronounce him definitively involved. What does she know that hasn’t been shared with the public?
How do you explain away the fact that Busch failed the polygraph re: Mark Stebbins. a $75,000 dollar bond magically reduced to $1,000, owning a Blue Chevy Vega Wagon with a White Hockey Stripe that is the twin to an AMC Gremlin and admitting involvement to Tim King to Larry Wasser?
Larry Wasser should have been put in handcuffs too. He gave him a direct confession to a murder and he didn’t report it
Mark, a hair matching Vince Gunnels was found on Kristine Mihelich. Vince Gunnels was known to travel with Chris Busch. How does that hair get on Kristine unless she was riding in Chris Busch’s car? Of course absolutely he is involved. Obviously you havent studied this case that closely.
3 replies to my post, all from clueless people.
If Busch was involved, I’m all for hanging him. I have no interest in defending this guy. None.
But, the evidence against him wouldn’t even get an indictment it’s so thin. No prosecutor would ever bring this case because they know it would be summarily dismissed.
The point I’m trying to make is that being myopic and saying it had to be Busch is just the kind of sloppy thinking that prevented this case from being solved.
So again, what specific, court worthy evidence leads you geniuses to conclude Busch was involved?
Because here’s the scorecard that a court would look at:
1) Physical evidence directly tying Busch to these crimes? No
2) Eyewitnesses place Busch at any of the scenes? No
3) Admissions of guilt by Busch? No
4) Any other evidence that would hold up in court? No
And to directly answer the replies:
1) Wasser claimed in his interview he had a “feeling” Busch was involved – Busch never admitted anything at any point.
2) There is zero evidence linking the hair on Kristine as having transferred from Gunnels to Busch and this wouldn’t even make it into a courtroom. First of all it was mDNA and secondly there could be any number of cars Gunnels rode in. How silly,
Come on guys, do better. All this nonsensical blabber does nothing to further this case. If REAL evidence is available on Busch let’s see it.
Mark, I caution you and all readers to cool it on the attacks of other readers. Everyone is just doing the best they can. Everyone EXCEPT THE MICHIGAN STATE POLICE AND THE OAKLAND COUNTY PROSECUTOR’S OFFICE. Why do you think, after 43-plus years and millions of dollars, people can still engage in discussions about theories about who did this?
Are you an attorney? What is your theory about this case? You don’t strike me as an “anyone but Busch and Greene” person, but I am always curious about those who take that stance. If readers want to engage in attacks on each other and the theories, go to the OCCK FB page or the a Reddit thread on this case.
The fact is that there were many, many sex offenders, child abusers/rapists and child pornographers (consumers and producers) in Oakland County and Michigan during this era. I’m sure there still are. I have read the stories of at least 30 people who are sure the monster they describe was the OCCK. They all look good on paper. Not to mention all the older incarcerated men in Michigan who are in for sex crimes against children and have never been compared for a DNA match to whatever the state police have as a comparison.
The people who committed these crimes and those who have stayed silent to protect them and themselves are monsters. The MSP and the OCP, turns out, are bad guys in this investigation. Don’t feed the gaslighting by attacking a civilian.
Do better? Tell the MSP and OCP to do better. Those of us left in the wake of this nightmare are not charged with solving these crimes, and do not have police powers. Again, let’s hear your theory. There is no “scorecard” because this case can never go to trial. That doesn’t mean we have to look away and stay silent. I don’t have to prepare a case. But I am going to continue to tell this story. Take what you want and leave the rest behind. Like I said, we aren’t in a courtroom.
And tell the FBI to do better–a lot better, too.
Cathy, I’m terribly sorry for you and the families of the victims. I’d never want my comments to cause you any stress.
But, your reply is not representative of my position.
I’ve never defended anyone in law enforcement. I’ve never defended anyone period.
But I don’t see how the spread of obviously incorrect information, which occurred in the replies to my original post serve any purpose.
And for sake of accuracy I’ve posted my theory here on a couple of occasions.
Call me whatever you like, but an apologist for law enforcement is wholly inaccurate.
Eh…no need for name calling here. I think it’s a safe bet that Marney knows quite a bit more about this case than you or I do. I think it’s fair for Marney to safely say that she knows Busch was involved, she did not say “I have the physical evidence to convict Christopher Busch in court today” and she is also not a prosecuting attorney. She is stating a reasonable opinion, by my estimation, even if stated definitively.
Much of the potential physical evidence (ligatures, illicit photos) is nowhere to be found – part of the problem here. The sketches of Mark Stebbins, same type of shotgun used in one of the murders, shell casing, would also be of interest to the court room. I’m not privy to additional testing on any of these pieces of evidence, so as things stand they are indeed circumstantial.
Admissions of guilt – Not requisite for finding someone guilty. Upon reevaluation of Busch’s 1977 polygraph conducted by Cabot, three experienced polygraphers contend that Busch did not pass. In a separate interrogation of Busch, he specifically cited the first three abduction sites as three spots he would frequent, in chronological order, presumably an attempt to build an alibi should there have been eyewitnesses. Not a direct admission of guilt, but those are all incriminating.
When Gunnels is a known victim and affiliate of Busch, and had been reportedly used as a lure, your response to citing that DNA match is “how silly?” It is mDNA and would not make or break a case, but I wouldn’t describe this as “silly.”
There is an awful lot of smoke around Busch, to put it mildly, and presumably plenty of additional information which is not readily available to the public. OJ wasn’t guilty based on the evidence in the courtroom but that doesn’t mean someone can’t say they know he was involved (without saying “and I can prove it in court”)… We can go back and forth about this (I’m not looking to), but I don’t think Marney’s statement is much of a stretch. Plenty of people have been “convicted” on less evidence than exists against Busch.
crimebuffy, Benjamin smith, Jeremy:
My apologies on the use of language. I should not be unkind. It was bad form.
I just consider the source Mark and i don’t accept your apology. It because of people like you that dont respect peoples opinions that this case has not been solved.
If you want to quote it like that sure. However if you look at Christopher Bush as a lead he made a great lead. His suicide crime scene was highly suspicious. He didn’t serve 1 day in jail as a repeat offender. Also multiple levels of incompetence through out this case. They didn’t even take Richard Lawsons tips as creditable till decades later. They didn’t publish Doug Wilson’s sketches. They did not release information on the other cars involved. They waited decades to release the fact that multiple people could have been involved. Which at the least could have been stated as persons of interests. They lost massive amounts of evidence. The prosecutors office and the state police have done everything to undermine Detective Cory Williams and refused to offer full transparency to the victims families. What would you think if you were in there shoes.
January 3, 2019 at 2:43 pm
I understand the points made here. I expected them and probably more to come. I’m not a young person or a newbie to this. I am 71 years old and can not shake my thoughts of a particular person. I initially spoke with Lt. Robertson the fall of 1977. I felt unheard by him and offered ,I believe, one more thought on the subject by letter. I heard nothing and pretty much gave up but continued to think of it almost daily. Around 2005 I had access to a computer and was able to research my thoughts and felt even more convinced. I admit my tunnel vision was probably comparable to others regarding Busch. I sent info to MSP but , as always, no response. About that time there was word that there was a suspect and I really thought there was action on my findings but it was Busch who I felt from the start didn’t fit. My thoughts then were that they know who it is but can’t come out with it because he is still alive and could have been recognized as the person in late 1977. I don’t want to state his name but will say a few of my reasons. He is a psychiatrist whom I cleaned his home for a few months in the fall of 1977. He gave me a different name than his and explained that was his phone name, I did find ID in the phone name. He had a journal mixed in with many other books written just before Mark Stebbins , exact words were “lately I have begun to love watching and being around children, those children 12-15 who seem to have no sense but have such a marvelous time” and another stated his feelings due to his loneliness and one was murderous.
He was sued from a case at a private psychiatric hospital where he worked for false imprisonment , assault and battery, she won. There are a few other reasons but I’ll leave it at this. I had 3 young children at this time of my life and I can’t begin to imagine the grief. I still can’t let go, I wish I could
Listen here , As Helen Dagner May have or may have not been a nut job; however, she was convinced that John Hastings was the killer. For Gods sake she said he admitted to it. He knew so much about the case. There’s a lot of so called coincidences with them . They say he passed a polygraph test . I DONT GIVE A RATS ASS. Hastings lived one street from Busch. They were the same age. They HAD to have known each other. Johns been in and out of mental institutions. I’ve personally looked all over Johns siblings FaceBook Pages and not one think mentioned about him. WHY? John has a Facebook page and he hasn’t posted anything since 2013. Also, not one of his friends list has a family member or for that matter a friend. His list is filled with girls that look like strippers. I wanna know what this guy drove back in the day . John admitted running into a woman at Hunters Maple pharmacy on the damn day Tim was abducted. Polly said she ran into a man at the Hunter Maple on the same day . COINCIDENCE?
I have not read Marney’s book yet. I am just curious. Wasn’t the Gremlin in that parking lot found to belong to a woman who was dating someone living nearby? If so, why is the Gremlin/Vega thing still an issue? If not, just ignore this comment. Does anyone know for sure if it was hers?
Bob, read chapter 14 of Marney’s book. That is the most coherent explanation of the car angle in this case.
Because the Vega could have been used in the abduction and then split. The Gremlin car never moved.
Francis Alger’s brother died in 2013. Ive been looking into the background. What day did francis die and where if is he buried? This goes deep
The FOIA documents from the MSP file on N. Fox Island state: “Shelden died in Amsterdam on 9-7-96. Warrant cancelled. EXCEPTIONAL CLEARANCE, SUSPECT IS DECEASED AND CAN NOT BE PROSECUTED BUT WAS OBVIOUSLY INVOLVED.”
I found 9-5-1996 in Amsterdam. I just ordered a copy of his death certificate for that date, had to translate the dutch on the City of Amsterdam’s website. I am going to send for his National Guard records too. I bet he died of AIDS. His brother Alger died in 2013 in South Carolina and is buried at Elmwood in Detroit in the family plot.
Since Francis Shelden liked sex with boys and men and died in 1996 at the height of the AIDS Epidemic in Amsterdam a major free sex and illegal sex activities city at the time, and was relatively young, it stands to reason he may have died of AIDS and been spreading AIDS to boys. I recommend someone request his death certificate from Amsterdam. It is a disturbing possibility.
Twitter post to @MichStatePolice with @GOVWhitmer and her AG @dananessel copied. If you want to do something, get on Twitter and start an accountability & transparency campaign. One tweet won’t do it, sheer numbers will. #doit4thefamilies
I dont trust Paul Walton as far as i can throw a building. He knows the truth but he doesnt want to make his right butt cheek Jessica Cooper angry. I dont care what anyone says, its very obvious that Christopher Busch was involved somehow in the OCCK case. There are just too many things said and evidence pointing in his direction. I appreciate Heather Catallo but i think she could have done a deeper dive on these 2 days of reporting on the OCCK case. I am grateful that the media is reporting on it because, it can never be forgotten and it must be solved.
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