In case you missed these comments:
Let the monster(s) Ted Lamborgine know what you think of him (MDOC number 643240) at Kinross Correctional Facility 4533 W. Industrial Park Drive Kincheloe, MI 49788 (this location had a riot on Sept 13, 2020 and as such his location may of changed – but your correspondence will be routed to him). His enabler–Pastor Dennis Raster of Real Life Christian Church, 66090 Van Dyke, Washington Twp 48095 or at his radio show location: 2 Radio Plaza St Ferndale, Mi 48220-2129. This guy takes Ted’s pension checks and absolves Ted of his sins whilst letting the victims and families suffer unmerciful torture- this guy even has a guy named LAWLESS working for him– speaks to this charlatan con man parasite with his sanctimonious degenerate actions. James Vincent Gunnels– he’s a parole absconder at the moment– we will provide contact details as soon as he is apprehended. He most certainly killed Susan Jill Robinson. Next is Arch Edward Sloan (MDOC number 100765) can be reached all day everyday at Gus Harrison Correctional Facility, 2727 East Beecher St. ADRIAN MI 49221 You can also see their criminal records on the OTIS website for Michigan (Ted was convicted of 14 counts).Reply1Like
- cathybroad Thank you, occk. Ted’s incredible cruelty toward children is detailed in the FOIA documents (2005-2007). He enjoyed making boys suffer terribly. Enjoyed it. Many years ago I asked Cory Williams, a cop who has been around the block, what it was like to sit in the same room as Lamborgine. He replied “Ted is a monster.” This from someone who has seen some monsters. Pastor Dennis Raster is using ill-gotten gains. You can’t buy your way into Heaven, but apparently his sheep think so. He should be called upon to donate every last cent he has received from Lamborgine to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. A disgraceful, poor excuse for a “pastor.” Cough it up and apologize. Your sheep are tainted by this as well. Gunnels–yes, just a matter of time. Probably in Montana with his half-sister Karen or his brother Paul. They all know. I am working on finding a way to show you the documents that show what an evil motherfucker Arch Sloan was, too. A super-predator who brags in prison about the serial killings he got away with. Complains that after he was named as a suspect, he’s been beaten and robbed in prison. Sucks to be you, old man. Do you know what the difference is between Ted Lamborgine, Arch Sloan and philanthropist Frank Shelden or some pedophile/suit with a home on Cass Lake or Orchard Lake? Not a damn thing.
https://www.whitepages.com/name/Paul-Michael-Gunnels/Bozeman-MT/19auj7rp
OCCK experts were convinced the assailant
“is a homosexual, probably not capable of performing a sexual act himself.”
taken from this article at
https://catherinebroad.blog/2019/09/30/lou-gordon-column-march-27-1977/
What the hell does that mean? It begs the same question decades later. What did Dr. Tanay and Dr. Spitz find? There seems to be some very descriptive things about it in the FOIA documents where Dr. Spitz is examining Tim. Sure doesn’t sound like traces of Ted’s activities to me. Sounds like something else. Granted Dr. Spitz has became questionable on some things later in his career but Dr. Tanay also? According to his ‘LinkedIn’ account, Dr. Tanay was a well renown forensic psychiatrist & homicide expert and had a very impressive background involving many well known murder cases. Anyone ever catch this old Lou Gordon show? What did they discuss?
When it comes to the OCCK case, one can’t even nail down a set of simple nut and bolt facts about the case because no one knows. Even after stacks and stacks of FOIA documents. Ask anyone from LE about OCCK and you get several different answers. Confessions from prison and convicts pointing at others goes on everyday. Make your choice and I bet there’s a version out there from somewhere and someone.
No wild theories but honest and open question. Were the bodies manipulated someway by some mid 20 year old kids after death? Could this had thrown off investigators?
occk,what makes you think James Gunnels shot Jill Robinson?
John Hastings, who now looking at documents from 11 years ago appears that he failed his polygraph or at the very least showed heavy signs of suspicion that raised red flags in Georgia, described to Helen about using an object on the boys after death. This was in the early 90s and documented by Helen maybe around 2005 or earlier. In other words he described simulating a homosexual act on the boys specifically. Where on earth did he get such an idea? Helen really had no clue what it meant but was puzzled by it. Was this common knowledge about the case back at that time? Or did he have a discussion with examiners Dr Tanay and Dr Spitz about it? It’s unclear even now what this article means but maybe John read it back then and had stories to tell Helen years later. Along with assortment of bogus information on his maps and such he did come up with that one. Does he have inside information or did he hear it from a specific neighbor down the street? Could be inside information or maybe he just stumbled across some of this in an article such as this. The problem is though and continues to be, it’s really kind of difficult to turn down looking at Busch’s old neighbor and keep looking the other way just because Helen doesn’t have the credentials and didn’t play nice. First he denied ever telling Helen anything and that he never knew Busch. Now I guess he did admit to some things and that he knew Busch. What are the real facts on that? Do we have to flip a coin to decide?
There are two reasons John still manages to evade justice. One, Helen Dagner. Two, if they look too closely at John they have to look more closely at his neighbor, Busch.
Helen. Sorry, folks, but Helen Dagner will always be a footnote in this case. Many months before Patrick Coffey called me, it was her information online that raised my suspicions about how investigators were dealing with this case. This caused me to call my “friend” at Birmingham PD, who responded with a load of shit, further raising my concerns. Like it or not, had I not been familiar with Helen’s story, I would have simply referred Patrick’s information to the state police and that would have been the end of it.
Helen fucked with everyone who did not agree with her 100%, 100 % of the time, which meant everyone. Some people weathered it better than others–men, especially Dave Robertson and Garry Gray, did not handle it well and could not see past their own egos.
Yes, it had been covered in the news that it was thought the boys were violated with an object, post-mortem. In my opinion, it is just as likely that this was due to ignorance/bias about child sex abuse. Surely it was easier to tell the public that the boys were not subjected to repeated rapes during their captivity. Someone familiar with the child porn rings at the time said the following were the “rules”: no penetration of the girls, no ejaculation. The monsters in this case were evidence-savvy, not OCD clean-freaks.
WTF would some guy, 14 years after the fact and before the internet had old newspaper articles 3 seconds away from review, be obsessed with and remember details about the case? He sure liked to talk to Helen about “burking.” Look it up if you aren’t familiar with this method of killing someone. And the paralytic drug succinylcholine, which certainly back in 1976 and 1977, was virtually untraceable on autopsy.
I need to double-check, but I believe he told investigators that he did not know Chris Busch. I’m obviously not a cop, but OF COURSE he knew Chris Busch.
At some point I am going to go back over all of the “John” material, knowing what I know now. This is what cannot be disputed at this point. GBI Agent Duncan, the only man associated with this investigation who did not have his nuts handed to him on a platter by Helen Dagner, reported the following after polygraphing John (as summarized in FOIA docs BLK 02868):
“Duncan said after the tests were given, he took a break to score all of the charts and went back into the room to confront him with the results. At first, ________ never denied anything but just sat there and listened to him he believed that ________ almost resigned himself to the fact that he was involved, but recouped and then started the denial of the exams.
Duncan stated _________ made some very strange statements to him and said more than once, ‘I can’t tell you,’ and then he would catch himself and what he was saying, and then followup by saying, ‘Because that’s not the truth.’
Duncan advised the undersigned that he and his supervisor, who also witnessed the entire examination process WERE SO CONVINCED THAT _______ HAD INVOLVEMENT WITH THESE MURDERS, THAT IF HE WERE TO CONFESS TO HIM, HIS _______ INVOLVEMENT, THEY ALREADY HAD A PLAN IN PLACE WHERE THEY WOULD HOLD HIM FOR THE OFFICERS IN MICHIGAN TO OBTAIN A WARRANT. HE SAID THEY WERE THAT CONVINCED.
Duncan advised that there was no question in his mind, whatsoever, that _______ HAS SOME INVOLVEMENT WITH THE MURDERS OF THESE CHILDREN. He stated he didn’t know to what degree of involvement he may have, whether knowledge, did the murder or assisted, but he firmly believes he was involved. Duncan stated that in polygraph, you can’t just pull out one part, and hang your hat on it. Duncan did however state again, THAT THERE IS NO QUESTION IN HIS MIND THAT HE IS INVOLVED WITH THESE MURDERS.”
Whether knowledge, murder or felony murder, Duncan’s opinion was that John was involved. This guy didn’t have the Helen “taint.” He didn’t give a shit what she said over the years. This was his read on his polygraph subject.
Little did he know it would be a cold day in cold case Hell when officers in Michigan would obtain a warrant in this case.
Subtract Helen from the equation, but factor in what a sick fuck this man is, and I don’t see how you can rule out his involvement or knowledge. He is still living. Another ball dropped.
And yes, a coin toss works here because that’s how the MSP likes it.
I was reading snow killings the past few days, almost 2/3 way thru it now. I do go back to helens site but was never one of her “cult”. But she did ask me to look into a few things for her as i was a real estate agent at the time.
John had to be involved somehow or was a person who was confided in information from someone involved. Perhaps with sheldon, he had too much info and grew up near busch and went to cranbrook. Those 2 things were not known as connected to this case back when helen met him.
Why did he tell helen these things? Who was she back then? A no body.. why her? Why over and over? And if she was wrong about the meeting why did he never sue her? Plus alpena witness? Theres too much there for john not to be in the know or be involved.
John hastings does need to be throughly looked into. A proper vetting of his high school and 20’s in particular. Who he knew and was friends with. Where he worked and who he worked with. He ran with occk at the very least.
John Hastings was never and will never be adequately investigated because to do so leads to Busch. Which leads to H. Lee. Which leads to L. Brooks Patterson. And to Robert Robertson and Joseph Krease at the MSP.
Why spend the time making a trip to GA, tossing him softballs and wasting the GBI’s time and ignoring an independent, unbiased polygrapher’s (Duncan’s) impressions?
Hastings went to Brother Rice, did he not? Another name of a POI around the same age, also Brother Rice, was provided to me this past summer. I turned the name in to the MSP–so you know what that means. This may have been a man who was attending Wayne State and supplementing his income by procuring kids for filming in the Cass and totally unrelated to the OCCKs. We will never know.
And don’t forget, Busch’s partner in crime, Greg Greene was in jail the week Tim was held captive. Busch walked with a $1,000 bond and was on the street, or in the parking lot, if you like. Greene was later convicted and sentenced to life. Busch kept at it.
We all thought the composite looked so much like Greene, and given the record-keeping at the time (handwritten and probably not reliable), surely Greene fell through the cracks and was out on March 16, 1977. But then we see the composite of a man seen by Doug Wilson–a composite THE PUBLIC WAS NEVER SHOWN, and is a dead ringer for Hastings. Did Busch need a helper now that his buddy Greene was in the can? Did John participate in Tim’s abduction and captivity and then take “credit” for all of the killings with his captive audience, Helen? (Who the F does that? Oh, I forgot, someone who just wants free food and someone to sit with.)
You may not put much credence in psychics, but in the hagiography to “Robbie” Robertson written by Tommy McIntyre, Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing (1988), the impressions of psychic Philip Jordan concerning Tim’s case included the following:
“10. Tim was not as tormented as the others. It doesn’t seem that he was tormented for any length of time.
11. He [Tim] did not go through some of the things the others did.” (p. 204)
What was different in Tim’s case? Greene was in jail. He was an animal and a monster. Did Busch have help from John instead with his continued suburban version of the Cass Corridor crimes against children? As one of the comments says: Flip a coin.
Quote from Cathy –
—
“Yes, it had been covered in the news that it was thought the boys were violated with an object, post-mortem. In my opinion, it is just as likely that this was due to ignorance/bias about child sex abuse. Surely it was easier to tell the public that the boys were not subjected to repeated rapes during their captivity.”
—
I use to think this was a possibility that they didn’t want to alarm the public so softened it up with the object-post-mortem idea. It made sense for a while although I got convinced otherwise going over this stuff.
Try to imagine Dr. Tanay on a talk show making this up and going away from the truth. Possible I guess but hardly likely. It is my understanding once you posted that article that someone tried contacting the Wayne State Library trying to track down that Lou Gordon show. Since he was a professor there that they thought the library might have copies or notes from it. They did search some I guess with no luck. Someone also tried making contact with Lou Gordon’s daughter to see if she has copies of his dad’s show. She did put up a couple old snips of things on YouTube at one time. If anyone ever finds that old show it could be very telling.
It’s so hard to believe with this case that here we are so many years later and can’t even determine some basic facts of it. Were the boys sexually tortured like most believe or was it object-post-mortem. There is a big difference. Base on the drawing left at Busch murder scene I know that the artist wants the cops to believe it was torture. Perhaps it was. I’m no doctor but I would tend to think that the examiners would be able to determine that. I also believed that if the victims were tortured there would be signs of obvious stress in the body. Maybe it’s all BS who knows? One thing that is not BS is the papers on Tim’s autopsy. The first one you posted was a fill in the blanks type form and it does show ‘sexually abused’ which could still mean a lot of things. What is very telling though was some documents you had up after that where Dr. Spitz is examining Tim and talking to police and other examiners although a lot of it is redacted (mostly names I believe) it clearly states something about an unusual find and he compared it to wiping his son’ s butt. I can’t find that document right now off hand but he was saying something to the effect the anal naturally returns to it’s normal state when the body is alive. If I understood what I was reading, with Tim’s case it did not which indicates it was done post-mortem. Whatever the case he seemed to think it was most unusual find. So my point in all of this disgusting description is that report clearly shows this was not some soften stuff up for public image. Still here we are with the majority believe otherwise. WTF.
Something to think about. Let’s say for one minute that all the information in the world comes to light. Confessions, new DNA breakthroughs more witnesses, etc. Can there be any type of arrest over this case when the basic facts are not even established? They still could never prove anything. Right? What a mess!
That is by design.
I’m not saying Tanay made that up for public consumption. I’m saying he could be wrong.
So could Spitz. After multiple rapes can he be so sure about how a child’s body would respond? A post-mortem violation does not rule out prior rape.
Being tied up and raped qualifies as torture. Both boys showed signs of being tied up.
None of this, either way, rules any suspect in or out. Busch and Greene are dead. Now you are looking at possible arrests of accomplices for felony murder. There will never be an arrest in this case. The MSP made sure that would not occur, ever.
I think the most you can say is that if John was stringing Helen along so she would buy him coffee and sandwiches, he used information from the press coverage. My brother’s autopsy and the accompanying notes do nothing to establish who committed this crime.
Who drew the picture since it was said busch was not a good drawer? That scene was so staged. But by who? They couldn’t point here is the killer lets end this anymore than that room. Was busch involved? I am sure. But he was also scapegoated too. Others involved had to have killed him and staged it to protect themselves. Finding out who had the talent to draw that picture would be telling.
Now with the boys suffocated with anal issues but no semen sounds like they died face down on a bed while someone was on top of them. Someone bigger than them. On top of them from behind. The bed suffocated them.
Could john hastings draw? We know he drew a map for helen? Could he be the one who drew the picture on the busch wall? Could the map be his hint to that?
I guess no one knows to what extend Hastings drawing skills would make him capable of producing that drawing but, yes, John could draw. He said his drawings were more of the mechanical/architectural variety. I do not have access to any of my information right now so this comes from the hard drive in my brain. He enjoyed drawing. He liked to draw buildings. I believe it is somewhere in one of the interviews that his purpose in going to Europe was to study the architecture. Finally, one of the high school photos from a yearbook shows John as a member of the Art Club ( or it may have been a photo from Art class.) There is plenty to make the assessment that John Hastings was no a stranger to paper and pencil. That being said, it also can’t be ignored that the drawing of Mark Stebbins by the police sketch artist (done, I believe, because at the time there wasn’t a current school photo available) is startlingly similar in detail to the sketch on the Busch bedroom wall. Could it have been drawn by someone who had those skills (police sketch artist)? Flip that coin.
He was an artist. He definitely could have drawn that drawing.
Yes. See my next post.
Do not forget that the actual drawing was tossed as part of a “routine purge.” There is nothing routine about the biggest unsolved serial homicide in Michigan history. Fingerprints? Further examination? Forget about it.
Also, don’t forget that one of Busch’s nephews tells Cory Williams and Garry Gray that he had seen that drawing up on the wall in Busch’s bedroom BEFORE the suicide. When pressed he agrees that, yeah–what were my grandparents thinking?!
If the cops even had even the slightest inkling that Busch murder was from a cop, and I’m sure they all believed that regardless of anything else. Most definitely it was quick to just purge everything with no questions asked. The Busch family members would just as well go along with that too and encourage strongly considering after all that took place. That is all an absolute given independent of any type of suspected cover-up or not.
I can confirm there is a death certificate for Francis Shelden issued in Amsterdam. The city is mailing me a certified copy. For 1996
So who ordered the Hastings polygraph in 2009 or whenever it was? (Sorry I don’t remember all the FOIA docs). I know I am a broken record, but I cannot understand how it can’t be followed up on when the examiner raises so many red flags. Why did they even do the polygraph to begin with, it just doesn’t make sense to me. Is there any agency that people can turn to when the MSP doesn’t do their job? (Or actually hinders an investigation.) I know I am sounding naive and I know this runs deep. I know the FBI seems to have screwed things up themselves. The only thing I can think of is the media. Fieger, Geraldo, more from the ID Channel, I don’t know…
Also, I thought I read in the documents that some woman that Hastings was with was commenting on a sexual ‘toy’ or something of some sort? Like he freaked out about it or something. Am I remembering that correctly?
My humble opinion. On record they investigated Hastings end of story. Satisfies the public and the many hornet’s nests that Helen stirred up. As far as the results, we didn’t see it. If the truth ever got out completely which seems to start to seep out a little bit it will be a total embarrassment for everyone involved. That part of the FOIA papers was never meant to get thru and someone slipped up big time. Maybe Gray’s hired help? I would like to see some type of doc that they did anything with the swab they took like results of lab work. I’m willing to bet we won’t ever see that. We’ve investigated him he’s been cleared another time. End of story.
Oh, it’s not over.
If helen was right? Heck they would burry this case just for that.
Mike. Anyone that’s been involved with this case is going to want to bury it. I’m afraid to say it but I think Helen has been right on many more things than what has been discussed here so far. Searching for the truth doesn’t apply for a case like this. More like bury the truth.
watch what these sick people do to thousand if kids
https://youtu.be/2yauijo6tY0
All the circumstantial coincidences are stacking up that we must keep brushing away otherwise we would go blind! My memories of going over the FOIA papers I recall when they questioned John in 1977. They made comments to the effect that he looked a lot like the OCCK sketch back at that time. If anyone thinks it’s just people seeing things. No, even the police made a comment about it back then as well as far as a strong resemblance. Also, I believe his girlfriend at the time whom turned him in originally because of suspicions had stated he looked a lot like the OCCK sketch as well.
What stood out the most for me was they said something about an injury around his eye when the police talked to him. I don’t know if this was right after Tim was abducted but definitely after the first sketch was known in 1977. No idea what this eye injury could had been but must have been evident at the time. There were also blank areas in the docs like where photos may have been taken out. I have no idea when they talked to him but I can only think of one thing when I read that though. I can picture Tim having a struggle with this guy and tried to gouge out his eye with his nails. That would be just about anyone’s way of self defense over an adult as a child. Seeing Cathy put up old photos of Tim in the past with the long finger nails kind of was planted in my memory as well when I read that. The extra emphasis of his nails being cleaned by the killer kind of hits home as well. Getting any DNA trace away
It’s just speculation I know but with latest developments of troubled polygraph and Doug Wilson photo I can’t help think about these other memories going over the FOIA stuff. I should have taken notes but I did not.
It’s all public information out there anyway at this point. I can’t find the section that I’m referring to. Maybe someone can help find it? But it was all in print somewhere in that enormous stack of docs. Would be curious of the date when he was interviewed to determine if an eye injury would still be apparent and even feasible speculation.
Two things stand out to me in this OCCK, that I haven’t heard discussed is that the drawing of Mark Stebbins screaming in agony is drawn from a photograph. As anyone with professional artistic training will tell you, this was not a drawing done while watching it occur live to the victim. It is however possible that it could have been done from a perpetrator who had a video or 8mm of the crime footage and paused it at that horrific scene.
Two, the cleaning of the bodies, and fingernails performed upon the victims during that era of the late 1970’s indicates to me someone in law enforcement as either participating, or perhaps advising/teaching the perpetrators on homicide forensic techniques. This cleaning of victims just seems to be a bit advanced in terms of crime evasion knowledge for a murderous paedophile network.
Also, just caught this article: https://www.theoaklandpress.com/news/oakland-county-man-charged-with-possession-of-child-pornography/article_c6d36cf6-f6a6-11ea-afad-bff8f002a156.html Seems MCP, doesn’t mind at all catching low-level paedos, just has serious issues investigating with those with GM or political connections.