27 thoughts on “A case study in how not to treat a survivor.”
Dear Mr. Gary Gray;
I’m assuming you come here now and then. Your ears probably burning over the many discussions about you!
Do you remember when Helen had something set up on her website years ago where anonymous posts could be made by anyone? Do you remember this? What was so peculiar was you used the name ‘In-The-Loop’. If I recall from a source it seemed like your office IP address showed up on those posts for some reason. Maybe just someone from your office?
I remember the discussion was over JH having a connection to all 4 victims and/or pick up locations and how astronomical those odds really were considering they were from different cities. I remember you brushed it off as nothing like it wasn’t really the case. Well it seems like we have some proof of some of those connections after all of these years. Had you really looked, you might have found them.
Why don’t you come on here and explain this polygraph in Georgia from 2009? Can you fill in some of the blanks in those docs? Seems like you set this polygraph test up but wasn’t around to witness it. Maybe you can tell us where those DVDs went from Georgia that covered those test results and the conclusions they reached. If anything else, do this for the victims for god’s sake!
If Gray and Robertson had spent a fraction of the time they spent on Helen’s site actually working the case, who knows where we would be today? The high ups at the MSP and the remaining living conspirators from the OCP back in the day were not going to let these men get too far, but they couldn’t even get out of the gate because of EGO. Perfect cluster****.
I thought I remember something from the TV news showing old OCCK file cabinets being wheeled to their office. Something on the lines that they were going to digitize all the reports and contents so they could be easily located, studied and kept. Wonder how far they got with that?
That would mean they could actually find documents and DVDs and evidence, rather than treating the files like you would a bunch of shit in your garage or basement–the stuff you tell yourself every year you are going to go through and straighten out before you drop dead and leave it for someone else to handle. It would also mean the FOIA response time would be streamlined and they could no longer shake down citizens filing FOIA requests, thereby ripping them off and dissuading future requests.
I would like to see someone from the TV news that has any balls if there are any, to cover and go knocking on MSP doors asking about the DVDs from JH polygraph. Do something useful for once on those days they cover the OCCK anniversary dates instead of the same rehashed stuff. Get the public involved someway also, maybe ask the public for the whereabouts of those DVDs as well in case they actually end up in a garage sale somewhere like Robertson’s old OCCK notes. Of course they would have to show who JH actually was so it would require some thorough explaining. Maybe a good excuse to cover a 5 day each night special coverage on it? It’s damn time JH is presented to the world as a OCCK suspect. Seems like a small chapter in Appleman’s book is not enough. Someone in the right position needs to demand some answers.
I agree with you 💯. JH has been brushed aside by the authorities and the media. They have totally ignored every aspect that’s connected JH to the case. Heather Catello where are you? I get irate over all of this.
Yes, indeed. Avoidance by everyone and for way too long. The reach for possible truth over this case is slowly becoming completely impossible by every day. It may be too late now! Is JH still alive?
Yes the reject is alive in Doreville Georgia . From my understanding is health isn’t well . It’s embarrassing and blatantly obvious that he’s connected in some fashion . MORE THAN ANY OTHER SUSPECT. I find it very odd that his daughter and his 4 siblings don’t have one thing about John boy on their social media. Let’s get real. ITS VERY ODD
Heather Catello and her TV crew should head down there right now and not a minute longer! Stop and see Mr. Duncan as well and get the truth over this whole matter and maybe discuss Mr. Gray’s detective capabilities with him. It would make for the best news coverage on OCCK ever made. It would answer a few questions of the many. Heather, please do something to make this case move forward after all these years.
Cathy;
You’ve got to admit that there are quotes that could be taken right out of Duncan’s conclusions that if they were shown on the TV news it would draw people and raise hairs and people would ask questions. How do we get this to the news? Need to get people knocking on MSP doors demanding answers!
The Detroit-area press has never dug deeply enough for long enough to understand that this case is a public corruption case, not just a decades-old, unsolved serial murder of children case to be used for sweeps week. Like many, they are more than willing to rifle through documents paid for by others making FOIA requests, but then say they won’t go down “rabbit holes” or engage in “conspiracy thinking.” This is shorthand for they won’t do the heavy lifting or keep an open mind or look at the big picture. Too hard. Many things smell funny and don’t seem right, but it doesn’t keep people’s interest for long. Too long ago, too many players dead, get over it.
In addition to highlighting the public corruption here, Hastings’ polygraph in GA shows a couple of things. 1. How the MSP really is not working this case and has not for a long time. While Gray and Robertson were “on it,” they just churned, deflected and stalled. The MSP wants the case kept “open” so they don’t have to get some sunshine on their investigation. 2. A close look at Hastings would mean a close look at Chris Busch, which would mean a close look at H. Lee Busch, which would mean a close look at Brooks Patterson and Richard Thompson, which would mean a close look at the child porn/sex ring operating in OC, which would mean a close look at Jack Faxon and other “suits,” and would mean a close look at everyone at the Oakland County Prosecutors office who ever touched this case, then and now, and on and on.
Cathy
Agree whole heartedly except that it seems to me that news people would want to jump on this all the more. Get on the ball Detroit! Basically one can of worms would open up a bunch more can of worms. These are the type of things that reporters would dream of ever uncovering. It only makes me want to know all the more what was on those damn DVDs that made them draw the conclusions they did in Georgia? What is your hunch? Do you think Hastings broke down during his polygraph and revealed his OCCK involvement with Busch? It sure seems like it by the strong wording that was left to read.
Duncan told Gray they even had a plan to keep Hastings until the MSP could get a warrant and Gray was actually stupid enough to document this in his notes. Every time Cory Williams got close, someone at the MSP or Jessica Cooper made sure to “kick him off” the task force or wall him off. I think if Gray had told Williams what Duncan’s findings were after the Hastings polygraph, Williams would have gone down there and cracked that worthless POS. Instead, Gray and Robertson hid the ball and that way their outsized egos could remain intact. Unbelievable in any case except this one.
Well with all of those other influences such as Jessica Cooper and Oakland County in general and connections to Busch and porn ring, etc, I still believe ‘Helen Dagner’ was enough of a reason on it’s own for Gray to want to bury anything that came out of that polygraph. If Hastings actually confessed to something, Gray would never ever want that to be known by anyone. I wish people out there would realize that. I truly believe you that if Cory had control, he would have seek the truth wherever that took him. It sounds to me like Gray’s office forgot to delete more out of the FOIA papers originally. Maybe that is why all the docs seemed to disappear completely now without further explanation. Is it possible that the flood came back again for a second time?
My reliable source described Gary Gray actions as getting so emotional over Helen it was like a little child. It was not just unprofessional but totally unbelievable. If this is true, it explains his actions and disregard to the truth over this case. Maybe putting someone like that on this case was intentional from the start which would describe the other influences you describe above and cover up intentions.
And then you have to ask yourself, why? Why could she, of all people, so thoroughly agitate an otherwise cool, controlled cop? What did she know that was so threatening to him? Is Hastings involvement as Helen – the “Loose Cannon”, continually reported too close to the truth or was it simply his fragile ego could not allow her to right? I wonder what ever became of her files?
Very valid point and something to ponder on. My guess is it could very well be such a combination of both his ego and Helen being so close to the truth that it’s a recipe for it being so potent as it was both playing on each other. We must add Helen’s personality in there as well as it seemed to really drive Gray to the edge. She drove many people that way. The problem with all of it is that JH was never evaluated objectively. Here we are over a decade later and we have no clue why Duncan wrote the strong conclusions he did. This side of the case is in stalemate where no one can find the real truth over this matter. What is so frustrating is when you try to explain this to people it’s so unbelievable and beyond comprehension to most.
I think you very well have something here. The bastards trickle up at the highest level. I’ve always been leery of L Brooks. He’s had suspicious cases throughout his career. His very first case as a defendant was one of his most suspicious ones . That being said. I pretty much feel Hastings wasn’t only involved, but was the perpetrator. There’s little questioning that he was the one seen at your brothers abduction . Wilson and the other lady seen in the lot that night should acknowledge Hastings . I’m sure they have been asked if that’s who they seen that night .
If the TV would ever flash the JH photo side by side with the first OCCK sketch as Cathy has shown on here in the past, most people would react with look what we have here. Someone that finally matches the sketch! More details at 11.
I could be wrong, but I always thought the media coverage of the OCCK in the last decade (if not more) has strictly been for ratings. All that is needed is one person in power to care. Someone that could go hold Hastings to the fire. But, MSP/OC are both just waiting for him to die I am guessing, along with Lamborgine, Sloan, etc. Would be nice if someone could track down Gunnels as well, but absconding is A-OK. LE could upload the genetic info they have and hope for a hit somewhere. If anyone in LE actually wanted this case solved, there are so many avenues to try right now. I really wish there was a way to sue the MSP or Oakland County for whatever the equivalent of malpractice is in law enforcement.
We all have our opinions as I saw Lamborgine as nothing but a wild goose chase like many of the others. Too many under the ‘etc.’ category. As far as Sloan & Gunnels, they’re pieces to the puzzle and most definite connection to this case cannot be denied but they are not talking and something is missing. Too many suspects and nothing real strongly positive to solve the case completely makes the media not want to dig for anything anymore nor anyone else for that matter. With Hastings we have a strange polygraph test with no one present from Michigan when it was conducted and something happened to make two professionals conclude what they did and very strongly at that. That part of this case should be able to be determined by someone. Someone with power and authority should be able to force and uncover what took place. The wording between the redacted blanks seems to hint at OCCK guilt of some sort and a connection to Busch. If that can be ever be determined what exactly was said, I think the Busch, Sloan & Gunnels connections may fall in place as well. Why is is it so painstaking to go back to something that was already conducted and established except that someone feels they really needed to bury it?
Except Lamborgine failed a polygraph regarding Tim’s murder, and I thought I read somewhere that Lamborgine said he molested the victims but didn’t kill them. Of course, the latter comment is just from the rumor mill.
I wonder if that hair found in Sloan’s car that matched what was on Tim and Mark could be tested again/uploaded to genealogy websites. Of course, I know I am dreaming that someone would actually do that, but very curious as to what that DNA would show. I
Agree! The hair from Sloan’s car is a down right out cry why that has not been further investigated. So many cold cases have been solved with genealogy traces. Unless for some reason it has been attempted and nothing can be determined from it. Seems like people like Ce Ce Moore never discusses other cases where perhaps she can’t put things together. It all lines up to known DNA family trees already established. Maybe sometimes it can’t be determined as trees are broken and can’t be fully traced. If that was the case though, it would sure be nice to see someone speak out and just say it’s been investigated and no conclusions can be drawn.
As far as Lamborgine. I thought there were many failed polygraphs related to OCCK. Some that we may not be aware of along with confessions with prison mates which happens often as stories are told and made up. They use it as a negotiation tool on matters. Maybe it’s just me with my speculation but I consider Hastings polygraph conclusions from Duncan and his boss as more powerful than just a failed polygraph. Something that may have not been measured but determined by something said. The way the conclusions are written it sure seems to imply that. With what was redacted out of those docs, it sure points to someone hiding something. I guess we will never know exactly what that was.
Oddly, what I remember JH denied he even knew Busch in his earlier discussions with Gray & Williams when they were present. So later in Duncan conclusions it’s stated that JH knew Busch for sure and was involved with the OCCK murders. This was stated with certainty. So what gives here other than JH must have cracked and maybe broke down and revealed things possibly a true confession? Duncan and his boss were probably already looking out for things and was prepared already as JH was suspicious of things before the polygraph was conducted as documented in some detail in the FOIA papers.
Gray finds out about these polygraph findings later back in Michigan. Try to imagine Gray finding out that JH was indeed connected to all of this and with Busch on top of it. He must have been shocked after already fighting with Cory Williams and putting him in his place over Helen while flying to Georgia and return trip. (Marney’s book) And Gray has already been witnessed way beforehand as having extremely emotional signs over Helen Dagner and her website. (Alpena Witness interview) The woman known all over the internet for the OCCK case claiming that Gray was not doing his job, etc. Described by others as Gray was so humiliated by Helen so much it was like she beat him up on the school playground and broke his balls. Gray being so close to retirement as well. So I’m sure Gray buried anything from that polygraph that would even remotely promote Helen and look like she was on the right track all of those years. DVDs documenting the whole polygraph test went missing probably at that moment.
Seems like it reads like a movie scene but sadly I believe this is what really happened. If anyone can ever uncover what took place in Georgia in 2009, it may very well tell the story.
Dear Mr. Gary Gray;
I’m assuming you come here now and then. Your ears probably burning over the many discussions about you!
Do you remember when Helen had something set up on her website years ago where anonymous posts could be made by anyone? Do you remember this? What was so peculiar was you used the name ‘In-The-Loop’. If I recall from a source it seemed like your office IP address showed up on those posts for some reason. Maybe just someone from your office?
I remember the discussion was over JH having a connection to all 4 victims and/or pick up locations and how astronomical those odds really were considering they were from different cities. I remember you brushed it off as nothing like it wasn’t really the case. Well it seems like we have some proof of some of those connections after all of these years. Had you really looked, you might have found them.
Why don’t you come on here and explain this polygraph in Georgia from 2009? Can you fill in some of the blanks in those docs? Seems like you set this polygraph test up but wasn’t around to witness it. Maybe you can tell us where those DVDs went from Georgia that covered those test results and the conclusions they reached. If anything else, do this for the victims for god’s sake!
If Gray and Robertson had spent a fraction of the time they spent on Helen’s site actually working the case, who knows where we would be today? The high ups at the MSP and the remaining living conspirators from the OCP back in the day were not going to let these men get too far, but they couldn’t even get out of the gate because of EGO. Perfect cluster****.
I thought I remember something from the TV news showing old OCCK file cabinets being wheeled to their office. Something on the lines that they were going to digitize all the reports and contents so they could be easily located, studied and kept. Wonder how far they got with that?
Hahaha!
That would mean they could actually find documents and DVDs and evidence, rather than treating the files like you would a bunch of shit in your garage or basement–the stuff you tell yourself every year you are going to go through and straighten out before you drop dead and leave it for someone else to handle. It would also mean the FOIA response time would be streamlined and they could no longer shake down citizens filing FOIA requests, thereby ripping them off and dissuading future requests.
I would like to see someone from the TV news that has any balls if there are any, to cover and go knocking on MSP doors asking about the DVDs from JH polygraph. Do something useful for once on those days they cover the OCCK anniversary dates instead of the same rehashed stuff. Get the public involved someway also, maybe ask the public for the whereabouts of those DVDs as well in case they actually end up in a garage sale somewhere like Robertson’s old OCCK notes. Of course they would have to show who JH actually was so it would require some thorough explaining. Maybe a good excuse to cover a 5 day each night special coverage on it? It’s damn time JH is presented to the world as a OCCK suspect. Seems like a small chapter in Appleman’s book is not enough. Someone in the right position needs to demand some answers.
I agree with you 💯. JH has been brushed aside by the authorities and the media. They have totally ignored every aspect that’s connected JH to the case. Heather Catello where are you? I get irate over all of this.
Yes, indeed. Avoidance by everyone and for way too long. The reach for possible truth over this case is slowly becoming completely impossible by every day. It may be too late now! Is JH still alive?
Yes the reject is alive in Doreville Georgia . From my understanding is health isn’t well . It’s embarrassing and blatantly obvious that he’s connected in some fashion . MORE THAN ANY OTHER SUSPECT. I find it very odd that his daughter and his 4 siblings don’t have one thing about John boy on their social media. Let’s get real. ITS VERY ODD
Heather Catello and her TV crew should head down there right now and not a minute longer! Stop and see Mr. Duncan as well and get the truth over this whole matter and maybe discuss Mr. Gray’s detective capabilities with him. It would make for the best news coverage on OCCK ever made. It would answer a few questions of the many. Heather, please do something to make this case move forward after all these years.
Cathy;
You’ve got to admit that there are quotes that could be taken right out of Duncan’s conclusions that if they were shown on the TV news it would draw people and raise hairs and people would ask questions. How do we get this to the news? Need to get people knocking on MSP doors demanding answers!
The Detroit-area press has never dug deeply enough for long enough to understand that this case is a public corruption case, not just a decades-old, unsolved serial murder of children case to be used for sweeps week. Like many, they are more than willing to rifle through documents paid for by others making FOIA requests, but then say they won’t go down “rabbit holes” or engage in “conspiracy thinking.” This is shorthand for they won’t do the heavy lifting or keep an open mind or look at the big picture. Too hard. Many things smell funny and don’t seem right, but it doesn’t keep people’s interest for long. Too long ago, too many players dead, get over it.
In addition to highlighting the public corruption here, Hastings’ polygraph in GA shows a couple of things. 1. How the MSP really is not working this case and has not for a long time. While Gray and Robertson were “on it,” they just churned, deflected and stalled. The MSP wants the case kept “open” so they don’t have to get some sunshine on their investigation. 2. A close look at Hastings would mean a close look at Chris Busch, which would mean a close look at H. Lee Busch, which would mean a close look at Brooks Patterson and Richard Thompson, which would mean a close look at the child porn/sex ring operating in OC, which would mean a close look at Jack Faxon and other “suits,” and would mean a close look at everyone at the Oakland County Prosecutors office who ever touched this case, then and now, and on and on.
Cathy
Agree whole heartedly except that it seems to me that news people would want to jump on this all the more. Get on the ball Detroit! Basically one can of worms would open up a bunch more can of worms. These are the type of things that reporters would dream of ever uncovering. It only makes me want to know all the more what was on those damn DVDs that made them draw the conclusions they did in Georgia? What is your hunch? Do you think Hastings broke down during his polygraph and revealed his OCCK involvement with Busch? It sure seems like it by the strong wording that was left to read.
Duncan told Gray they even had a plan to keep Hastings until the MSP could get a warrant and Gray was actually stupid enough to document this in his notes. Every time Cory Williams got close, someone at the MSP or Jessica Cooper made sure to “kick him off” the task force or wall him off. I think if Gray had told Williams what Duncan’s findings were after the Hastings polygraph, Williams would have gone down there and cracked that worthless POS. Instead, Gray and Robertson hid the ball and that way their outsized egos could remain intact. Unbelievable in any case except this one.
Well with all of those other influences such as Jessica Cooper and Oakland County in general and connections to Busch and porn ring, etc, I still believe ‘Helen Dagner’ was enough of a reason on it’s own for Gray to want to bury anything that came out of that polygraph. If Hastings actually confessed to something, Gray would never ever want that to be known by anyone. I wish people out there would realize that. I truly believe you that if Cory had control, he would have seek the truth wherever that took him. It sounds to me like Gray’s office forgot to delete more out of the FOIA papers originally. Maybe that is why all the docs seemed to disappear completely now without further explanation. Is it possible that the flood came back again for a second time?
Agree Gray would deep-six anything regarding or related to information from Helen Dagner.
My reliable source described Gary Gray actions as getting so emotional over Helen it was like a little child. It was not just unprofessional but totally unbelievable. If this is true, it explains his actions and disregard to the truth over this case. Maybe putting someone like that on this case was intentional from the start which would describe the other influences you describe above and cover up intentions.
Absolutely.
And then you have to ask yourself, why? Why could she, of all people, so thoroughly agitate an otherwise cool, controlled cop? What did she know that was so threatening to him? Is Hastings involvement as Helen – the “Loose Cannon”, continually reported too close to the truth or was it simply his fragile ego could not allow her to right? I wonder what ever became of her files?
Very valid point and something to ponder on. My guess is it could very well be such a combination of both his ego and Helen being so close to the truth that it’s a recipe for it being so potent as it was both playing on each other. We must add Helen’s personality in there as well as it seemed to really drive Gray to the edge. She drove many people that way. The problem with all of it is that JH was never evaluated objectively. Here we are over a decade later and we have no clue why Duncan wrote the strong conclusions he did. This side of the case is in stalemate where no one can find the real truth over this matter. What is so frustrating is when you try to explain this to people it’s so unbelievable and beyond comprehension to most.
I think you very well have something here. The bastards trickle up at the highest level. I’ve always been leery of L Brooks. He’s had suspicious cases throughout his career. His very first case as a defendant was one of his most suspicious ones . That being said. I pretty much feel Hastings wasn’t only involved, but was the perpetrator. There’s little questioning that he was the one seen at your brothers abduction . Wilson and the other lady seen in the lot that night should acknowledge Hastings . I’m sure they have been asked if that’s who they seen that night .
If the TV would ever flash the JH photo side by side with the first OCCK sketch as Cathy has shown on here in the past, most people would react with look what we have here. Someone that finally matches the sketch! More details at 11.
I could be wrong, but I always thought the media coverage of the OCCK in the last decade (if not more) has strictly been for ratings. All that is needed is one person in power to care. Someone that could go hold Hastings to the fire. But, MSP/OC are both just waiting for him to die I am guessing, along with Lamborgine, Sloan, etc. Would be nice if someone could track down Gunnels as well, but absconding is A-OK. LE could upload the genetic info they have and hope for a hit somewhere. If anyone in LE actually wanted this case solved, there are so many avenues to try right now. I really wish there was a way to sue the MSP or Oakland County for whatever the equivalent of malpractice is in law enforcement.
We all have our opinions as I saw Lamborgine as nothing but a wild goose chase like many of the others. Too many under the ‘etc.’ category. As far as Sloan & Gunnels, they’re pieces to the puzzle and most definite connection to this case cannot be denied but they are not talking and something is missing. Too many suspects and nothing real strongly positive to solve the case completely makes the media not want to dig for anything anymore nor anyone else for that matter. With Hastings we have a strange polygraph test with no one present from Michigan when it was conducted and something happened to make two professionals conclude what they did and very strongly at that. That part of this case should be able to be determined by someone. Someone with power and authority should be able to force and uncover what took place. The wording between the redacted blanks seems to hint at OCCK guilt of some sort and a connection to Busch. If that can be ever be determined what exactly was said, I think the Busch, Sloan & Gunnels connections may fall in place as well. Why is is it so painstaking to go back to something that was already conducted and established except that someone feels they really needed to bury it?
Except Lamborgine failed a polygraph regarding Tim’s murder, and I thought I read somewhere that Lamborgine said he molested the victims but didn’t kill them. Of course, the latter comment is just from the rumor mill.
I wonder if that hair found in Sloan’s car that matched what was on Tim and Mark could be tested again/uploaded to genealogy websites. Of course, I know I am dreaming that someone would actually do that, but very curious as to what that DNA would show. I
Agree! The hair from Sloan’s car is a down right out cry why that has not been further investigated. So many cold cases have been solved with genealogy traces. Unless for some reason it has been attempted and nothing can be determined from it. Seems like people like Ce Ce Moore never discusses other cases where perhaps she can’t put things together. It all lines up to known DNA family trees already established. Maybe sometimes it can’t be determined as trees are broken and can’t be fully traced. If that was the case though, it would sure be nice to see someone speak out and just say it’s been investigated and no conclusions can be drawn.
As far as Lamborgine. I thought there were many failed polygraphs related to OCCK. Some that we may not be aware of along with confessions with prison mates which happens often as stories are told and made up. They use it as a negotiation tool on matters. Maybe it’s just me with my speculation but I consider Hastings polygraph conclusions from Duncan and his boss as more powerful than just a failed polygraph. Something that may have not been measured but determined by something said. The way the conclusions are written it sure seems to imply that. With what was redacted out of those docs, it sure points to someone hiding something. I guess we will never know exactly what that was.
Oddly, what I remember JH denied he even knew Busch in his earlier discussions with Gray & Williams when they were present. So later in Duncan conclusions it’s stated that JH knew Busch for sure and was involved with the OCCK murders. This was stated with certainty. So what gives here other than JH must have cracked and maybe broke down and revealed things possibly a true confession? Duncan and his boss were probably already looking out for things and was prepared already as JH was suspicious of things before the polygraph was conducted as documented in some detail in the FOIA papers.
Gray finds out about these polygraph findings later back in Michigan. Try to imagine Gray finding out that JH was indeed connected to all of this and with Busch on top of it. He must have been shocked after already fighting with Cory Williams and putting him in his place over Helen while flying to Georgia and return trip. (Marney’s book) And Gray has already been witnessed way beforehand as having extremely emotional signs over Helen Dagner and her website. (Alpena Witness interview) The woman known all over the internet for the OCCK case claiming that Gray was not doing his job, etc. Described by others as Gray was so humiliated by Helen so much it was like she beat him up on the school playground and broke his balls. Gray being so close to retirement as well. So I’m sure Gray buried anything from that polygraph that would even remotely promote Helen and look like she was on the right track all of those years. DVDs documenting the whole polygraph test went missing probably at that moment.
Seems like it reads like a movie scene but sadly I believe this is what really happened. If anyone can ever uncover what took place in Georgia in 2009, it may very well tell the story.