My brother sent me this link. Powerful. I had to read and reread.
How public officials respond will be their legacy.
To clarify, this was not written by my brother. He sent me the link.
Are we back to pretending that Greene was conveniently out on bail during Tim’s abduction?
You are not a careful reader. Try again.
I just have to ask…based on the Epstein case, can we ever trust local, state or government investigations? Epstein…Brunel…Nygard…Maxwell. There are so many dots that connect…
It’s an interesting piece for a blog based on your data presented on your blog and Marney’s book as well. However, the author claims to have garnered sources that professional journalist Keegan did not produce in her book. I wonder how the author got that information considering the money and time your father put and other attorneys put into the case. Is the author a friend of a police officer or a journalist from back in the day that kept some files to themselves? Or obliquely knew how to work the system.
Sounds like a high school or freshman college piece. Or maybe just a crime sleuth who had an attachment to the area.
Analogies to crime TV shows and even the drama music attached to “Jaws” is telling. Perhaps the writer is wanting more to become a director/movie maker or something in that field.
No mention of the big meeting in Genesee County on April 11th ,if I recall correctly, about the “conspiracy” sweeping the nation. You uploaded files about that years ago.
Regardless, what happened to the fingerprint “expert” of Patterson and what database was it compared against? Also, wonder if they can get DNA from the fingerprints they took at the police station back in the day.
Look in the mirror, like the author suggests.
I didn’t pick up “look in the mirror” at any point in any chapter of this piece which was centered mainly around “Brooksie” Patterson. There was little to no mention of cops in Oakland County and only those around Flint/Alma during the time of Chris Buschs’ arrest and that of Greg Greene.
It was more directed at anyone in office in Oakland County and politicians and nothing directly pointing or calling the reader to action or to shame and blame the reader for not being able to re-invent the past.
Of course this may just be one segment of a pre-planned launching of a ‘just the facts’ styled Adam-12 type drama. What music to use to cause intense, on the edge of your seat anticipation? Hmmm? It was the 70s! Maybe something Areosmithish?
I did like how the author used the wind to explain the blizzard that day. Great detail and research! I was curious about the mystery lawyer as well. The part about the prosecutors minions was riveting and could have used some form of expansion, imo.
“Look in the Mirror” is a trite cliche…unless you are a witch uttering “mirror, mirror on the wall, who’s the fairest of them all?
This isn’t about a fairy tale; it’s a horror story in every sense of the word.
Considering how many were involved, sans the dead rich men, many could still be alive.
Ok, Eagle Eye, a careful reader such as yourself might have picked up on Footnote 56, which in a broader sense applies to someone who wants to nitpick the writing style and approach rather than consider the very serious substance of what the Oakland County Prosecutor and his chief deputy pulled in this case. And yes, many who were involved could still be alive. Including Richard Thompson’s goons. Who might want to detract by talking about Adam-12 and Aerosmith.
From fn56: “Anyone calling foul about the presentation of these unredacted documents deserves scrutiny.”
A few thoughts…
I wonder how in the world they got those unredacted documents? I hope they have more.
The author stated numerous times that Tim and Mark were abused prior to death, but I thought the physical evidence showed it was post-mortem? Or is that just a guess?
One thing I learned is that a couple of the officers were on the right side of the law. We obviously know Cory, but it sounded like Doan and Waldron were honestly trying to do a good job as well. Funny how it is the LE outside of Oakland County that seemed to be trying the most, and yet all the victims were from OC. Its absolutely sickening. How Greene was ever out in society is incomprehensible to me, and you have Busch pretty much bragging about his ‘problem that he isn’t proud of’, and he is free to roam and rape and possibly kill.
Is Thompson still alive? If he is, I hope he reads all this stuff and feels horrible.
I then was just Googling and came across this interview with LBP as part of some Library of Michigan Political History. Before you read, pointing out a few things:
1. Amazing how proud Brooks is of the case where 2 kids are brought to justice for kidnapping “Bob Stimple’s Boy” (Article has name wrong, it was Bob Stempel, a VP at GM. Of course he doesn’t reference the child’s name Tim, more important to mention the important father). I wonder what he would have done if it was Chris Busch that did it… 2 GM execs- which side to choose? In this case though, it was just a couple kids from Ypsilanti that did the kidnapping. He talks about how much money GM has, how easy it was to come up with ransom. Go figure.
2. He states that Jimmy Hoffa and the OCCK ‘still sort of bother him’ that they happened on his watch. So much could be said about. So sickening.
Here is a snippet of the interview:
Bill Ballenger: Once you became prosecutor, what were some of your biggest cases?
L. Brooks Patterson: Well, the biggest ones that I tried or the biggest ones that were in the County
are two different ones. I tried and convicted the two young men that kidnapped
Bob Stimple’s boy, a couple of young kids from Ypsilanti, eastern Michigan I
believe. They didn’t have a misdemeanor. On a lark they grab Tim Stimple, held
him in a trunk for three days, and it worked out all right. We gave the $50,000.
Interesting thing, Bill, it was in Bloomfield Township. I went down to the police
station, I was prosecutor. There were more security officers from GM than there
were police officers. They have an army. And we said, “We need $50,000 for the
ransom.” Boom, within two hours there’s $50,000 marked bills with the dye on
them. And it was just incredible what goes on behind the scenes of these big
corporations. But anyway, it turned out they got the money, they released him,
we caught them the next day. That was a good case to try.
L. Brooks Patterson: The ones that still sort of bother me was on my watch, Jim Hoffa was kidnapped
in Oakland County at their at the Red Fox in I think it was Bloomfield. And then
of course in the mid-’70s, ’76, ’77, with the four children in Oakland County who
were kidnapped and killed.
Bill Ballenger: The blue AMC Gremlin, child killer.
L. Brooks Patterson: Well, I always thought that was a red herring. But the four kids were kidnapped
and murdered. But they weren’t murdered, they were alive for a week or 10
days. Somehow this kidnapper had a way to stash them and then kill them after
he had his with them. That was a terrorizing era in Oakland County. Every
mother walked their child to school and was there to pick them up. It was sort
of a mental and physical lockdown in this county. And that crime was never
Bill Ballenger: It was never solved. Do you have any theories about what could have
L. Brooks Patterson: I’ve got a lot of theories but nothing that’s worth what you paid for them. I think
whoever was doing it could have been some young man that the parents said,
“All right, rather than report him to the police, let’s put him in an institution.
The public’s protected and yet he’s gonna get better care.” Maybe he was killed
in another incident, maybe locked up in another state. We checked out all those
theories. That blue Gremlin you mentioned, some woman recalled seeing a blue
Gremlin in a parking lot near the drugstore where Timmy King was kidnapped.
So we spent months chasing blue Gremlins, and I think it was a red herring.
Ok, I didn’t actually read the footnotes. Mea culpa!
Great research. Not trying to detract. The writing style uses music to add to the drama in the opening with the metaphor of the mayor of Amity putting others at risk due to the monsterous shark gobblin’ up people. I remember when people were fearing the bathtub water back in the day. Lol!
The scene setting using “Law and Order” presents imagery known to more modern crime show watchers and how they get the law but fall asleep before the order comes.
The writer is pulling it together much more factually, imo, much like an Adam-12-which was way before its time imo- in that the author presents the reports, news clippings and polygraphs. The photos to depict the title “Guarded by Jackals” are spot on what with the eagle swooping in to the rescue. Much imagery.
A good writer apeals to the sense of sight,smell,sounds, etc. and even the weather like the day of the blizzard.
The “minions” need to be explored, however. . . the title, afterall, is “Guarded by Jackals”.
The minions seem to be the cornerstone of the jackals. The mystery lawyer….loved it!
Speaking of the polygraphs, it sounds like Chris Busch feared nothing when talking to the police. Perhaps that made them think Greene could pass it due to his mental illness. Of course, Busch sounds like a sociopath as well.
Hardly does one see footnotes on a blog. Missed #56 and its opinion piece embedded.
What- how come no mention of MSP? This seemed to be more focused on Brooksie and Thompson which I’m sure they were the most prominent, but there were others too and no mention of them.
Of course there are others–other jackals, even present day for god’s sake, some of them in uniform and some with law licenses. Operating under color of state law. But there is no ham-handed, altered, redacted, paper trail like there was with Patterson and Thompson for a keen eye to finally catch despite their attempts to muddy the waters and bullshit the public. In a conspiracy or a cover-up, the players and their successors keep the code of silence, like the dirty people they are. Once you are dirty, you are always dirty and there is no going back. It doesn’t stop with “one favor” or “one secret.” Where was the Detroit-area media when the hard questions needed to be asked in 1977 and 1978? Kissing Patterson’s fat ass, which stayed planted in his Oakland County kingdom for the rest of his life–decades controlling the gates. We need whistleblowers to come forward to get more answers. What do you think the odds of that are in Oakland County, Michigan? Even if the MSP were “clean” in this case (in the sense that Robertson got pulled along rather than was himself dirty), their mishandling of this case and their terrible treatment of the victims’ families in this case could be the basis for a book about that agency alone. Or a handbook in how not to handle serial child murders. But Patterson loved that the case was stashed at the MSP black hole. You know he did.
I recall some time back that redacted documents were posted on this blog and someone commented they could see through the redactions on their cell phone; I could too on my computer which uses a similar technology. It is possible this person took those documents and cleared the redactions.
Regardless, the polygraphs supports Coffey’s claims about what Wasser said. It does not prove Busch murdered the kids, it only shines a similar light on him much like that in which the redacted words shone through. It points the finger. Then the suicide scene points it elsewhere again.
What gets me is they had the two men in Genesee County, while Oakland County was living in fear and that’s where they held their ‘bring a friend’ undercover meeting to discuss the tentacles of these criminals. Why Genesee County? Did Greene/Busch unload more information that they really didn’t want to know about? Green just upchucked the Bowman name.
Every time someone comes up with a blog/article, comment on this blog that fuels debate, then that’s another angle to be exploered and thought about.The most activity I’ve seen is when you posted the composite of the suspect seen at the Pharmacy parking area.
A careful researcher such as that who wrote “Guarded by Jackals” might be able to connect the writings of Patterson to legislation discussed in the hearings and/or the the philosopy of the abusers that seemed to think their behavior was the norm-which apparently it was.
Good outline, good research, good documentation. It needs to be fatter! Like Patterson.
I doubt anyone who has read this blog for any time would not doubt it was some type of coverup, or major bungle-up. I still have doubts about Busch, though.
Can’t wait to hear if what that lady attorney said is true and if there is a likley suspect still alive who fits the composite and drove a brown van. Weirder things have happened.
Observer, and those composites in my mind hold the key to solving this case. The case isn’t going to be solved by what Bowman supposedly said . That’s an assumption. What information are we going to get out of Busch or Greene at this point? We know for a FACT that those composites were not of that obese cow BUSCH. We KNOW it wasn’t grease monkey GREENE either. We do know that there were two witnesses that seen the suspect talking to Tim. What’s the percentage they that suspect took Tim? 💯. Are there any other suspects that were seen talking to any other of the kids that were killed? NOPE. Most composite sketches are dead ringers to the killers in murder cases. Doug Wilson was able to give exact details to what Tim King was wearing . That tells me that he could get the same exact details to what the suspect looked like. Does that mean the suspect seen with Tim is the killer? No but it does mean that he was involved abs the person involved is as guilty as the killer himself. Charles Manson got life in prison and he didn’t kill anyone . John Hastings looks identical to those composites. He has admitted to killing those kids. His admittance was heard by two people. He has failed a polygraph in 2009 and that has yet to be addressed. The kicker is, he’s alive and walking freely in a Atlanta suburb. What’s the chances of getting him to talk or getting Busch, Greene, Lamborghine, or Sloan to talk?
Cathy, I don’t know how you contain the anger regarding Tim and how the cover-up essentially (possibly) led to Tim’s death.
I’ve been thinking about this case and evidence in all of the files. From the interviews, Busch was basically begging to be investigated (based on him stating how he liked to go up Woodward and get kids, had fantasies or whatever of kidnapping kids with Greene and molesting them for days (or whatever he said). A sketch of a child screaming that looked like Mark on his wall… But OC had more important things to do, like bow to power, be paid off, whatever happened.
In my mind, you have Busch, Greene, and Gunnels who were molesting/luring kids, and what are the odds that a Gunnels mDNA match is found on Kristine and maybe Tim and then all the molestation history and admissions of both Busch and Greene? It is hard to see where those three are not somehow involved.
Then you have Sloan with the Bonneville DNA- how does he fit in with those 3? In my mind, there are 2 people you cannot eliminate as suspects, and that’s Gunnels and Sloan given the DNA evidence. (I know the hair in the Bonneville didn’t match Sloan, but again, based on looking at the hair DNA listed in the files, that hair is a very close match to Ruth Stebbins, I think it was just Mark’s hair that was found, so of course it wasn’t going to match Sloan.)
There’s a lot of possible suspects as you still have Lamborgine, Hastings, and others- but there’s no physical evidence for them. If someone in LE could just take a look at Sloan and Gunnels at least, it would be a start. Oh, and also go follow up on Hastings and his polygraph results. No physical evidence for him, but that polygraph fiasco needs investigation. Like if cold case people could get involved, they could just start with those 3 since they are still alive (for now), and expand from there.
(Sorry, I know I have stated all of this before in various comments, but I can’t get all of this off my mind)
It is a lot to sit with; it is a lot to live with. That’s why I found it so interesting that some were so ready to comment on the author’s work so quickly. There is a lot there and it requires careful reading and rereading. When people post using different user names, but the same throw away/blocked email address, it is a pretty good sign that they have an “interesting” agenda. (Not you, KP.)
Even though I have long, long suspected that Patterson, Thompson, Robertson, Krease and others who followed in their roles, were/are dirty, it is still shocking to contemplate–as the author describes–the depravity involved in the decision-making that happened to cover asses. If you read that work carefully, all of this makes sense in a depraved way. Greene was administered FOUR polygraphs. The records reflect this. Robert Florida, Melvin Scott and Ralph Cabot were ALL involved in polygraphing Greene. Yet the MSP and the OCP produce only documents reflecting two polygraphs administered to Greene. Richard Thompson appears in Flint, traveling in a dangerous blizzard, to attend Busch’s polygraph. The only time a member of the OCP office attends a polygraph in the OCCK case.
Busch got a deal, and that deal extended to other counties in MI. His attorney, Jane Burgess, was no legal genius. As someone has observed, a telephone pole could have represented Busch after January 28, 1977, and gotten the same result. After this deal–and the polygraph shit these men who were supposed to protect society–happened, these idiots realized after Tim was abducted that they could never, ever, go deep in the OCCK case again. They shut it down. Nothing could ever circle back to Chris Busch and what took place the last week of January 1977. There were multiple men involved in these crimes; they all could have linked up to Chris Busch. Someone would have figured out he was arrested and let go with a $1,000 bond in January, weeks before another child murder.
It’s why they would never look at John Hastings. It’s why none of the other suspects were ever looked at the way they should have been when the case could have actually been solved. It’s why there was no solid evidence protocol observed (it goes beyond Keystone Cop-ism). No one could ever find out what was pulled to keep Chris Busch out of jail.
It’s why mtDNA from Gunnels is just a “coincidence,” but mtDNA from a hair in Sloan’s car is the holy grail. I could go on and on, but the answer to why this case was never solved is in Guarded by Jackals. If a reader has a better explanation, let’s hear it.
It is very difficult in this case because the depravity of the crimes themselves seems matched to the depravity of the public officials who pulled the strings that ensured this case would never be solved. Imagine having to live with the decisions of a pair of assholes who decided the best approach is just to be satisfied with the general sense that the killings will stop and that the case will just fade into the background over time. Which, of course, it did. And they went on to live their lives, reputations essentially intact, kissing their kids and grandkids goodnight. It’s awful.
“…the answer to why this case was never solved is in Guarded by Jackals…”
I agree! And, for the first time, I’m seeing evidence sufficient to convince hyper-skeptical me, of deliberate interference in these investigations and thus OCCK as a whole.
I’m going to promote the heck outta this.
Thank you for doing that RD1. The Detroit-area media will ignore it. I hope there is more.
Maybe we should send a link to Parents of Murdered Children, who supported Dick Thompson’s stance on “no plea-bargain policy.” (See Detroit Free Press, August 2, 1996, p. 16.). I have news for Dick. The siblings of murdered children have an extra special award for him. A front row seat in Hell.
Doesn’t anybody else find it odd that both Greenes statement about Bush as well as the polygraphs (or at the least the paperwork that has come out) deals with Mark Stebbings only? Im reading through all of this and Im waiting for someone to ask <>….
the Stebbins abduction had been 1 year prior to that arrest, but Kristine was only found a couple days prior. Her case was lietrally red hot in January 77. Then Bush is brought in and even mentions all (3) likely abduction sites. Yet nobody seems to be bothered to ask or check what CB/GG had been doing a just couple days earlier. wtf ???
What I didn’t understand was in Chapter 7: A Tale of Two Polygraphs of the Jackals blog, there is a handwritten note stating the following:
“Sgt Waldron also stated Greene was polygraphed on the Timothy King murder twice. Once by Sgt Robert Florida (FPD) and once by a State Trooper from Post #35. This was the only case Greene was questioned or polygraphed on by our department”.
I thought Greene was polygraphed on Mark’s case up in Flint, and why was he polygraphed twice on Tim if he was in jail and I don’t think I ever saw reference to any polygraphs on Tim before. (This note was written by Julie, the one that said Greene was in jail from January on).
I think it can be safely assumed that Julie was wrong–Tim’s case was the most high-profile, she says Tim but it was Mark. The record reflects only that Greene and Busch were polygraphed on Mark’s case. But why was the name of one of the polygraphers redacted??? She is probably right about Robert Florida being one of the polygraphers. Yet they redact the name of the other polygrapher. It makes no sense. Unless they only want two polygraphs reflected in the record.
A couple days before Kristine was found, Greene was hanging around the middle school in Flint. Very curious if the ‘Runaway’ (referenced in the Jackal’s blog) ever saw Kristine since he was seen with Greene while Kristine was missing. Maybe that attic room in the Greene house needs a DNA sweep like LE did for show on Morningview.
I intended no ill will. I’ve read your blog for quite some time and have no agenda. I merely fell asleep before the “order” part came up.
You have already covered discrences in paperwork related to the OCCK case. That could have been a cover up or keeping unwanted journalists away and not going through their system of things such as the file kept in Robertson’s garage. Or, it could have been protecting a weathy citizen’s son. It is still unknown.
Regardless, many knew about the crimes prior to even the first death. The deaths escalated the the need to seize at least one high profile killer and call it a day. That never happened.
It is beleiveable they could have replaced the polygraphs. It is beleivable that something didn’t add up to cause them to do just that. What is unbeleivable is they held the main meeting to discuss the “conspiracy” in Genesee county on April 11th when most this stuff was happening in Oakland and Wayne county. Why is that?
On beating a dead horse-we get it that Patterson isn’t loved or revered by your family. Nor was he admired by the liberal writers back in the day either. You had a post of a most excellent rewrite of that era that was riveting and exciting to read.
This post is tactical in nature. Still it proves nothing as a smoking gun to the evidence of the deaths of the four children.It is an extension of the cover-up.
I was wrong about the age group of the author as there appears to be more than one in that they mention “WE” and utilize past tense verbs as their dating of the system. I reread some of it. It’s more or less a political piece.
Dagner’s rants were gossip and slander.
Some 40 years later, we all know polygraphs are NOT admissable in court. I only beleve Busch is guilty because both you and your neighbor Coffey beleive it to be so. It’s all too creepy to wrap one’s head around after looking at the photos.
I do get a sense of the area with each new information entered by others such as the comment about the Stempel boy kidnapping and the security forces of GM. That was the post Hoffa era. . . which may have led to a series of mishaps in trying to catch the phantoms at large.
Oh, and I only mentioned Areosmith because I recalled someone mentioning that was the album sleeve in the Busch bedroom. Guess they’d zoomed in on it or something as was trying to get into “his mind” at the time of his suicide. I never saw it, just read about it.
I still hear the Jaws music from time to time when wading into water, though.It has more effect than a thin storyline.
You do not have to believe anything in this case just because Coffey and I do. If you have helpful knowledge concerning related crimes that took place before Mark Stebbins’ murder, you should contact Inspector James Bivens at the Wayne County Prosecutor’s office. Whoever you are, let’s take this offline. I am not going to post any more of your comments. You seem to have an issue with me, so deal directly with me. Email me at OCCKtruth@protonmail.com. That’s my encrypted email, but it is me, not some committee. Maybe you will use your real name and not hide behind throwaway, temporary emails. And I will continue to beat that dead horse, because he deserves it. I am happy to discuss that with you via email as well.
I wonder if anyone knows why Busch chose Alma to set up his resturant? Doesn’t Sloan have some type of tie to that town, too? Also, if Busch had been in Big Brothers since 1971, was he also involved in homosexual activity and/or used as a lure by someone else?
How did Busch and Greene meet? Was it while visiting relatives in Flint?Is that how Gunnels got tangled up in the mess?
The big “secret” meeting in Genesee County says something about the area. Not Wayne County which was high crime, or Oakland County which gave the press the terror tales of the childrens’ deaths, but Genesee County. What in the world was going on up there?
I am currently re-reading Guarded by Jackals. I think skipping the prologue is best because afterwards all I could hear was the music. I noticed there’s a chapter “The Campaign” so the missing infomation may have been a major distraction as it would appear there’s more.
It makes sense that Patterson wouldn’t want the wealthy to be indicted given his stance on the “us verses thems” often recorded which reflected his attitudes. Also, the shake down of the volunteers is indicative of a police state-another reason I’m not so certain Busch is in fact the one who killed all the kids. It’s lucrative to keep a police state rolling; Patterson may have had a “just cause” in his raids on pornography at the time. Afterall, that’s what Frank Sheldon profitted in…though they never actually caught him….cough, cough!
Having said that, the press didn’t seem all that interested in solving the OCCK anyways, did they? This “fear” of the press may have had somethng to do with the disappearing reports and ‘dark ages’ styled takedown of civilasation.
From what I’ve read on your blog, it sounds like the press was operating much like the bloggers do today-without respect to anyone, including the victims and their families.
Guess I’ll have to wait for the entire book to make total sense of it all. It’s a good start, though. I thought it was rather thin…guess there’s more.
I just want to know for certain who did it by proof be it fingerprints, paint samples, dna, eye witnesses,…you know…a real ending for real people.
You’re not a very careful reader of this blog or you would know the answers to these questions. The search function is quite useful for refreshing ones memory. As for your critiques of Guarded By Jackals I suggest you contact the author, whoever they are, as your comments are quite tiresome.
Quite possibly, the most remarkable thing I’ve ever read!
Makes suppositions, but explains and documents very carefully the FACTS from which the suppositions are derived. Laser focused on blowing the whistle over apparent falsification of ‘official’ narratives involving Greene, Busch & Bowman – excellent! Not distracted or sidetracked by; what about Hastings, Sloan, McKinnley, some other favorite suspect?, Busch ‘suicide’ controversy, child snuff fantasies, etc., congratulations!
To my mind, perhaps the most important info on this case I’ve seen, since the revelation of Busch pre-polygraph confession.
Under ‘Probable flaws’, Narrative Report Interview with Kenneth Bowman 01/26/77′;
“He said that Greg never tied him up, but he knows that Greg tied up other boys”
From investigator’s reports 3-27-08; noting that Greene suggested to Cabot, whomever killed Stebbins probably knew him. The notes that Bowman told the taskforce, Greene had mentioned having a friend in Ferndale, but he didn’t want to talk about it because it was personal. Then;
“It’s possible that this friend of Greenes/or Greene himself, was familiar with the Stebbins boy through this friend in Ferndale…”
– this would mean, Mark Stebbins was not a random, opportunistic abduction, but was in fact targeted for abduction and lengthy captivity.
There is some speculative discussion on whom Greene might have known in Ferndale, who also knew Stebbins.
4-1-08 investigators interview with Jeff Plumley. Plumley relates that “Greg Greene beat up Kenny real bad one time”.
“Complaintsb – final”, page 4 (2-19-76) Comp # 76-03079
Officers talked to a Margaret Gray of Ferndale. She tells them that, in August of 1975, a woman came to her door looking for “those Soucie boys”. This woman stated that the Soucie boys took her 12 year old son into the bathroom of a restaurant, BEAT HIM UP, and sexually assaulted him.
“Investigations and interviews – final” there is a follow-up to the above complaint, after Ms. Gray verifies that the woman was Mark’s mother.
This isn’t kids fooling around and getting out of hand, this is a very violent sexual assault! I can’t find any other info about this, if those boys were ever charged for example. Why did this happen to Mark? Were there rumors about his sexuality, going around at his school or in the neighborhood?
Those of us in the Gay community know such stories too well – a boy is rumored to be Gay because of mannerisms or behaviours or just as slander – and then they get bullied in a sexualized way. Maybe in the locker-room, some other boys confront them; “Hey, we know you like X. Do X with us!”
They can comply, which might be interpreted as confirmation of the rumor and lead to even more sexual demands by even more people over time. They can refuse, in which case it will happen anyway, but now it will be a violent rape.
Whatever the case might be, six months after getting violently sexually assaulted by two neighborhood teens, Mark will be ‘targeted’ for abduction by some person, who will repeatedly violently sexually assault him over several days, before ending his life. Did anyone investigate, whether this really was a coincidence, or not?
These documents are so horrible for what they reveal and was missed, overlooked and ignored, as well as the lack of professionalism. They speak for themselves and do nothing to engender any kind of confidence in law enforcement.
Many of us hide behind our identities including myself. Just would like to point out that I
only posted once and only once on this thread under my ‘Inquisitor’ ID. No idea who these other posters are and really don’t care or the reference to people using blocked email addresses under different names but some seem to think it’s me using other IDs which is not the case. I initially saw all of this stuff going back to Greene again and posted quickly as I did. Now reading over the article several times over and all the hype with it, I’m not really sure what to think. If there is ever any type of resolution to the truth, that is what really matters. Hope this leads to somewhere. Best regards.
As we know Patterson was corrupted. Who really knows to what extreme how much concerning the case. My family personally had their issues with L Brooks. We know what Wasser told Coffey. Wasser later recanted what he said to Coffey. It’s kinda like how Hastings recanted his admittance to Helen. We know Helen fabricated much of her information. The kicker though and WE can’t deny is the Alpena witness. There 2 witnesses to hearing Hastings admitting to killing those kids. We KNOW Fat ass Busch wasn’t the one seen talking to Tim King. We know it wasn’t Greg scum bag Greene seen talking to Tim King. What’s the percentages that it was John Hastings seen talking to Tim King? 90% 80% 50% ? Hastings has a failed polygraph that has yet to be dealt with. He’s alive. I’ll never forget a family friend “ detective John Taylor” who was on the case told us back in 1983 that he knew who did those horrendous crimes. That the killer was in a mental institution at the time and his mother was mentally sick as well. That he lived close to Royal Oak Beaumont . He never gave us a name but he told us he went to the mental institution and told the guy that he would get him before he passed away. Unfortunately as that didn’t happen.
Do you think that this lines up with any known suspects
JN – an assumption that most people make, including police investigators, including “experts” on child abduction cases that police consulted, is that the person(s) who abducted the 4 children would be same person(s) who caused their deaths.
But we don’t know that to be true. We don’t know for certain who abducted them, or even if they really WERE abducted in the classic sense of being forced into a car and driven away. We don’t know for certain, who caused the death of any one (or all) of victims. So we really can’t know and maybe shouldn’t assume, they were the same person.
Bowman claimed, that he had been shown a polaroid of a small boy who could have been Tim King, tied up inside of the trunk of Busch’s car. Bowman claimed a lot of things, but assuming that was true…that obviously could not have happened, in the parking lot that Tim is assumed to have “gone missing from”? A man or men tying up a little boy and putting him in the trunk of a car, in a parking lot, doesn’t get noticed & reported? Is beyond belief.
Whomever that was, if it is true, they would have to be lured or coerced into the car in a less conspicuous way, and later on – in a location where no one could see – be bound and placed in the trunk. Yes?
So, it’s certainly possible then, that ONE person (A) picks up the child in their car, and then meets up with someone ELSE (B) in a deserted place, and the child is bound and transferred into the trunk of the second car?
Then no one would see (A) driving around with a tied up child in their car, and if the child was successfully lured rather coerced or forced, not even see the child being pulled in against their will or threatened with a weapon or anything else so blatantly suspicious. By the time the child has realized they ARE being abducted, they are already at the meetup. NOW, it is safe to tie them up and hide them in the trunk of (B) car.
IF anyone saw the child get into the car of (A), and reported that, the child would no longer be in the car of (A) by the time a dispatch was issued and police might pull them over. And no one ever saw the child in the car of (B), so (B) and their car will never be associated with the abduction.
Too complicated? But we have already a similar scenario in the police reports relating to Greene and Busch.
Investigator Notes 6-30-09
“Waldron told us that Busch and Greene were into exchanging kids and would meet at a gravel pit in Holly…to swap kids…”
So, the person who snatched the 4 children might not be the same person who will sexually torture them and cause their deaths. If you wish to believe Hastings was the abductor, perhaps his confession was to being ‘ultimately’ responsible for their deaths – not because he personally murdered them, but because he delivered them into the hands of the person who DID do that?
Your whole post here is an assumption. Most of the case is assumptions and theories. Agree? What we do know is that Greg Greene was in jail when Tim King was abducted. That’s just a fact. It’s been documented. We also know from 3 witnesses what the suspect looked like that was talking to Tim King. Doug Wilson was able to give pin point description to what Tim King was wearing. Even describing the color of Tims skateboard. If he was able to describe Tim, then I would trust the description of the suspect. Now if Bowman supposedly seen a photo of Tim King tied up, where is that photo? Why didn’t he say something when he seen it? Do you believe that? What I do know and this is just a fact. Pay attention! John Hastings looked identical to those composites from HM. John Hastings was heard by two individuals admitting to the murders. Not one person , but 2. You can’t discredit two. John Hastings lived 7 miles from Hunter Maple. Doesn’t mean anything right? John Hastings failed a polygraph in 2009 miserably. Steve Duncan who administered Hastings polygraph said there’s no doubt Hastings was involved in those murders. Now Hastings is alive and walking freely. Busch, Greene, Sheldon, Lawsen, Peter, Paul , Paul , Mary and Harry are no longer with us. What Justice are we going to get with them? How are we going to get any information from them? I’m not sure about. You, but I’m fing pissed that Hastings is free Jay walking the suburbs of Atlanta. Exonerate him and then I won’t ever talk about him again; however, not gonna happen. He knows .
Do I believe Bowman? Is a very good question, and deserves an answer.
I have no reason to doubt, that statements Bowman made while he was still a minor (1970s) are anything other than the honest truth of his experience.
However, the same cannot be said for all the statements Bowman made to police as an adult. Cathy has expressed a greater faith in those statements than I am willing to grant them, and that’s fine. But, for example, Bowman’s claims about having known and been abused by Lamborgine back in the ’70s – something he did not relate to police at the time. There is even a statement by police investigators, in their reports, that some of that is not true and that Bowman appeared to have drifted from relating the honest truth of his experience into attempting to second-guess investigators and tell them things that he thinks they WANT to hear.
So, no, I don’t necessarily believe any given statement by Bowman – as an adult – is the factual truth.
Cathy, commenting on KP’s thoughts..Bill Ballenger interviewing LBP…How was it that LBP “forgot” the UNSOLVED murders of John McKinney (art gallery owner in birmingham) in September of 1978 and Gail Webster (Troy Somerset Apartments) October 1978…on his watch….
P.T. Barnum Patterson was a terrible prosecutor and attorney. He was much better suited to county executive, where he could surround himself with good business minds and his mobbed up buddies and just be a big promoter. That’s what he liked to talk about and he loved basking in the glow of wealthy suburban success that he gladly took all the credit for. Then used that position to deflect blame when it came to his failures and corruption as prosecutor. What are a few murders in suburbia? Just look at my wealthy constituents who keep raking in the dough!
On January 31,1977, Det. Waldron submitted a “special report”. At the bottom of highlight box, OCTF involved in investigation of kidnap and homicides of 5 juveniles…Who was the fifth ???
I can’t be certain that this what what the report is referring to but at the time it was thought that there two other victims as well, Cynthia Cadieux and Jane Allan. This was prior to Tim King’s abduction and murder.
More insights, inspired by “Guarded by Jackals”.
About Greene & Busch supposedly “swapping boys” at the gravel pit.
Revisiting investigator report; 6-30-09
“Waldron told us that Busch and Greene were into exchanging kids and would meet at a gravel pit in Holly…to swap kids. He said that Greene would bring a boy from Flint, and Busch would bring one from who knows where”.
EXACTLY! From “who knows where”, because Waldron himself couldn’t put the name of a known Busch victim forward, as a potential candidate for such swapping (unlike Greene and his baseball team victims).
Because, none of the known Busch victims who also reported being abused by Greene, made any statements about Busch “swapping” them to Greene – or anyone else. None of them made any statements about being taken to parties in the Cass Corridor and there abused by men other than Busch or Greene. None of them made any statements, about being delivered to Moore for use in CSA pornography. None of them made any statements, about being taken to North Fox Island, forced to be nude there, molested there and photographed there.
All of which simply increases my suspicion, that the passing of kids from one perv to another, at the gravel pit, refers to OCCK victims specifically. I’m not certain who made the statement to Waldron about “swapping”, but there is this in the report;
“Waldron said this gravel pit is in the same area in Holly that they brought [redacted, probably Bowman] when they molested him, in fact [redacted, probably Bowman] was the one that pointed out the gravel pit to Waldron”
I can imagine a scenario, wherein Greene brings Mark Stebbins to Busch, there, for Busch to take up to the cabin and “have” for a few days. After which, Busch is supposed to pass Stebbins back to Greene for his “turn” – or more likely, Busch is supposed to give Greene the cabin (with Stebbins in it) for his private use, for a few days.
But…to Greene’s surprise and horror, Mark turns up murdered instead! Greene will never get his turn with Mark, because that animal Busch has killed him and had his body dumped, in a public place! [Is this “f*ck you Greene”?]
A scenario like that, might help explain why – when Greene is arrested for raping his baseball team boys, he immediately rats Busch out as the killer of Mark Stebbins. Because that involved some kind of betrayal of Greene, by Busch? And now, he has to be made to pay for it?
Couple thoughts on this scenario..
1. Wasn’t the sexual activity post mortem (activity that shows physical evidence)
2. The Sloan car is tied to Mark somehow, assuming they are telling the truth about the DNA evidence.
3. Did LE really talk to the kids outside of Oakland County that Busch molested? Could they have been part of the trades?
Your #1 I was always curious about. Seems like Tim’s autopsy report where Dr. Spitz is discussing his findings in detail it sure seems like that was the case. Further followed up with the Lou Gordon article shown here
where Dr. Tanay is hinting to something on those lines. I guess no one has ever found that Lou Gordon show in the archives anywhere. Unknown it it was ever actually aired. Anyone have memories of that show from 1977?
I have searched for that episode as well, with no luck. Dr. Tanay wasn’t a medical examiner or coroner, he was a forensic psychiatrist so he really wouldn’t know much more about when the sexual assault occurred than what he saw in Dr. Spitz’s report or in conversations they may have had. So, the question remains. . . was post mortem sexual assault an attempt to soften the horror a la Oakland County’s narrative or was it fact? In my eyes, whether it was or wasn’t has no bearing on who was involved. So many have already died, the screws need to be put to the suspects who are still alive. Evidence needs to be turned over to Othram Labs. Immediately.
The autopsy report where Spitz is talking to a staff of people during the autopsy findings seems like it had lots of names redacted out of the document that were present during the exam. Unless maybe I’m interpreting it wrong, I always assumed Dr Tanay was one of them that was present during the tests but who knows for sure. The Lou Gordon article itself implies that he worked closely with Spitz as well. Good point as maybe the ‘post mortem’ was just a way to soften the horror of OCCK narrative although as descriptive as Dr Spitz gets in that document, it sure seems hardly likely as it reads like real findings during the procedure. Have to pull that old document out as maybe I’m wrong on my interpretation. So many years later and the simple facts are still open for debate on this case and always will be.
Lou Gordon became ill around the time of that article and passed away not too long afterwards. Seems like Wayne State that has Dr Tanay’s personal records where he was a professor there could never find any confirmation if that Lou Gordon show was ever made or any type of notes from it. If anyone has further information out there on this, I would be real curious.
I just reread the autopsy document on Tim King. I think the officer questioning both doctors – Spitz and Smialek -is trying to torture the report into concluding that sodomy occurred post mortem. In fact, Spitz makes a point of saying that based on dilation, Tim was sodomized more than once.There is simply one sentence when the officer again questions if it could have happened after death and the response is it “could” have. That is not a strong enough word to make it a forgone conclusion (yet they did.) Might I have missed something in my reading? Yes. Fresh eyes are always welcome.
I tried to find that report with no luck. Glad you were able to find it and interesting conclusions. So that reads as not as strong as I recall it. Thanks for digging into that. So maybe the ‘post mortem’ is just a fallacy as many have suggested all this time.
“…kids outside of Oakland County that Busch molested”
If you don’t have witness statements from these kids, how do you know for certain that they ever existed? I have assumed that, if such witness statements existed and someone had them in their files, that fact would have come out and been made public at some point during the heyday of publicity about Busch & Greene – OR, such files would have been turned up by the relentless effort of Det. Williams. None are mentioned in his investigator reports.
There were wildly inaccurate statements in print media, about Busch, Greene & Bennett, at the time. Thanks to Det. Williams’ efforts, we can sort some of that out. For example, the 8 ROLLS of film said to have been confiscated from Busch are really the 8 REELS of film seized by Waldron, as noted in the “items seized from Busch” lists.
IF anyone out there has witness statements by Busch victims, other than the ones from “known” victims identified Det. Williams, PLEASE DO make that known.
I’m quite certain that Busch and Greene’s shared “fantasy”, as related by Busch to police, WAS acted out by them – to some extent – and that it refers to Mark. They did live it, and the victim was Mark. Prove me wrong.
Because, EVERYTHING Busch related to police in his statements to them (not just the more obvious things), is a veiled reference to OCCK victims.
With respect to Child Sexual Abuse (CSA) images produced by Greene and/or Busch;
Greene’s baseball team victims stated that he took nude polaroids of them, he confessed to that and sure enough, an investigator found a packet of polaroids right where Greene said he had stashed them – in his eavestrough drain.
We don’t know for certain what was on the 8 reels of film confiscated from Busch, or even if they really were generated by HIM, or not. Claims that they depict North Fox Island are speculative as far as I know. They were reportedly passed to FBI for analysis. If there was ever a report generated about them, it doesn’t seem to still exist.
I still think it’s possible, that there could be film depicting Greene & Busch abusing the Busch nephews (despite their denials), that has been circulating forever among pervert images traders, but I’ve decided not to pursue that myself. It’s just too presumptuous, for me to do that without the permission of the presumed victim(s).
I’m not “on the ground” there in Michigan as some of you are, if anyone wanted to ask the surviving nephew to pursue a matching images search through NCMEC, we might learn something from that. But at this stage of life, would he even WANT to know? Or want anyone else to know? It would be understandable, if the answer was NO.