The True Crime Garage podcast has two new episodes covering The Oakland County Child Killer (Tuesday, August 14 and Wednesday, August 15, 2018). J. Reuben Appelman, author of the just-released book, The Kill Jar, is interviewed as part of the second episode.
Solid job, gentleman. Some minor errors and assumptions, but I’m glad you interviewed Appelman and kept an open mind. The case is complex but you had some excellent observations. You went beyond discussing murder for entertainment and provided a public service. Your May 2016 episode was not so solid, but given that all you had then were the inaccuracies repeated over the decades by the Detroit-area media, it is understandable. You got this shit on the right track in podcast land after speaking with Appelman. Thank you. Listeners, you might have to listen to these episodes twice to let it all sink in. Wake up.
Yes, Oakland County–you are not famous, but you are infamous. And now more people will understand why. Listen to these two episodes of True Crime Garage. Pulling back the veil one outlet at a time. Let the unraveling begin.
These two podcasts are on Stitcher. They are great, they include more details than I’ve ever heard. I don’t know if these guys are getting it from Appelman’s book but it is very good.
They clearly got their information and direction from Appelman and they also mention my Dad’s blog. This case always requires a deeper dig than a review of Wikipedia and old media reports.
Absolutely right with Oakland County being infamous. The front in that county that is put on with the powers that be is on full stage with their flag-ship yearly event in the Woodward Dream Cruise this weekend. Everybody can bury their head in the sand enjoying their time, but that stretch of Woodward is forever tainted, being the corridor where such horror and sadness took place.
If anybody from Metro Detroit is attending the Dream cruise this weekend, take a moment to step away from all the festivities and say a prayer for and think about the victims and families that were and STILL are affected by this horrible time in history.
The dichotomy on weekend like this compared to what took place, is striking and still gives you a jolt.
I just received Applebaum’s book. I’m taking it very slowly as it brings on so many memories and emotions. Tim was in my 6th grade class. I’ll never forget those horrifying days. Sending you strength…
Thank you, Beth.
Appelman…sorry for the typo…
Thanks for the links to the podcasts.
I just got done listening to true crime garage podcast and I was impressed… I’m also reading Mr. Apple man’s book which I find really good. Let’s hope some of this publicity will get the ball rolling!
Thank you, Laura. If you got something out of Appelman’s book, please consider leaving a 5-star review on Amazon and/or Good Reads. Why? Because there are a lot of people out there right now who are just into gore and horror and this book does not cater to such freaks. This is not a “serial killer for entertainment” book—so many books and podcasts have that bent now. It would be amazing if people with a conscience would read this book and possibly counter the gore-seekers who might rate the book more poorly. You know what I mean.
I finally listened to the True Crime Garage podcast today. I was actually surprised at how much more information than the standard there was. To be honest, I approach these fresh looks with apprehension because these cases have a profound effect on me, and while these guys are a bit on the dramatic side and do still have some nitpicky things not exactly correct, they allow Appelman to discuss some of the facts not generally known and don’t plow over him when what he says doesn’t match up with the already known.
Yes, errors. So used to that. But here’s what is most important about about this—episode two, where Appelman makes sure the listeners know what bullshit the LE (I would prefer PIG) narrative about this case is. These bastards sanitized and spoon-fed suburban Detroiters a sweet little suburban serial killer story. Yeah, sorry, these kids were held for a total of almost five weeks total, but at least they had a “babysitter”! Well cared-for; disposed of in funereal fashion. No blood, no sign of bondage. Raped by an object after death (right).
These podcasters were smart enough to realize Appelman wasn’t afraid to call this shit out. The first time the narrative has been called out for what it is—fucking bullshit.
And that was the moment that really caught my attention. Finally someone willing to say with fact (another thing I liked – everything he has written is found in official documents), “this ‘laid out’, clean and well cared for” narrative is bullshit.
Listened to the podcast. Now I am reading Appleman’s book.
I thought the True Crime Garage guys did a good job describing each of the children, and each of their circumstances and timelines. They did a good job pointing out that different police departments were involved, from the very first victim. I was in shock to hear that Mark Stebbins was brought back to the police station after he was found. So starts the mishandling and incompetence. As the podcast hosts moved forward detailing information, they would weave back, without getting sidetracked from the victim that was being focused on, which was good.
The reality of what actually was, compared to the version of what the public was told- so FUCKED UP. Learning so much about each of the victims and how each was dealt with, how many screw ups and missteps there were- incomprehensible. 41 years later. Words cannot describe.
And these missteps and screw-ups left a good portion of Oakland County youth scarred for life. I think it has becomes more pronounced as we have aged and found our voices but at least we can call it bullshit now.
Interesting information found in both the podcasts and the book. There are some questions that must be asked, however.
First, I have known for some time that in the case of at least Tim King, he wasn’t neatly laid out in the snow. The theory of the kids being cared for well seems to contradict the autopsy evidence. However, we have to establish a few things first. To my knowledge, the only child we have a picture of is your brother. Tim’s murder was under drastically different circumstances. Evidence suggests that it was under “pressure”, likely by intense media heat put on the case thanks to the bravery of your family for standing up and speaking publicly to the killer(s). Was there access to other photos? If not, is it really a fair and accurate assessment to say certifiably that all the kids were just tossed out like garbage? It is evident that Tim was. Is there evidence to suggest Kristine was, as well?
Second, the bodies were badly taken care of by investigators. In the case of Mark Stebbins they used a dirty blanket to cover them. There are conflicting police reports based on the autopsies and what investigators actually state. Some investigators say what the reports state are actually lies. This sort of shoddiness may be a result of the police but it actually may also be true. The person responsible for at least one autopsy later lost is accredited status for botching cases with a dirty lab and evidence that ended up on someone as a result of the dirty state of the place. Much of this evidence may in fact be a result of piss poor handling by the original investigators as uncovered by your family. Is it fair to state that this is positively false?
Third, is there any link whatsoever that has ever been established between Arch Sloan and Christopher Busch? Sloan was a pedophile, yes, but like Busch and Greene and all the other ilk, he specifically targeted boys. So did Lamborgine. None of the people mentioned in this book targeted girls, yet Kristine was held longer than anyone else. What purpose would she have possibly served? Why hold her at all?
Fourth, all the people in question and rings in question operated primarily by the same way most of these rings operate: Prying on the poorest and most vulnerable of society. Moore ran his bike shop and extracted favors from children in the area who did not have anything to eat. These were kids of drug addicts and single mothers who did whatever they could to survive. They had a system. What good would rich kids from the suburbs do other than bring enormous heat on them?
Ultimately, it is quite tragic that this case is still unsolved. Kudos to you, Appelman, Innsted, and all the others who have fought valiantly for years to get the truth out there. I don’t think that your ideas are immune to scrutiny, however. There were girls killed as well which throws a major wrench in the diabolical pederast group theory. There was also the letter to Danto which doesn’t seem to make much sense in the context of slobs pulling this off.
I think one can argue that there was serious incompetence at play, but unfortunately because of this, I don’t think it is fair to jump on the fact that Busch did this alone. It doesn’t make sense that his brother was in fear and requested witness protection if his brother was alone and it was long gone. What the evidence seems to point towards is an attempted frame job on other pedophiles. I wouldn’t be surprised if the real OCCK was someone who was submitting these “anonymous” tips that led to the investigations of pedo rings in the area. He was probably a victim of these groups, grew up, and exacted his revenge on the rich kids because he was abused and nobody cared. This is an amateur theory only, but I think it fits all known evidence. IMO, the OCCK knew both of these groups, likely because he was a victim in the child sex rings, was likely in his early twenties, possibly coming back from Vietnam. This was his way of getting back for what happened. He used these murders to bring down the ilk of the community that nobody cared about because they abused kids nobody cared about.
I understand your frustrations in the OCCK case. I am not trying to be mean. What has happened to your family and all the victims’ families is 100 percent wrong. But there are a ton of kids out there that get not even a cop to look into their stories. They are mostly forgotten, washed up and left for dead. There were numerous victims of Fox Island. Nobody batted an eye. The largest pederast child pornography production group in the US at the time. We are talking about more than just 1 or 2 kids. Nobody batted an eye, nobody cared. People cared about the OCCK case because the victims came from affluent homes. Perhaps that is what propelled the killer to do what he did. The targeting of suburban kids does not fit the M.O. of pederast rings. Perhaps they got fancy and wanted to do something special or different, but it doesn’t make sense from my research into how these sorts of groups operate.
Correction, not affluent homes, but affluent neighborhoods, I am aware that neither the Stebbins family nor the Robinson family were particularly well off or even middle class.
I think you have put a lot of thought into your response with several points to consider. I would, however, argue that not all of the neighborhoods were affluent – not Ferndale, Berkley or Royal Oak and the area in Birmingham where Tim was abducted would’ve been considered upper middle class but not affluent by any means. I think the shock and fear was in the fact that nothing like this had happened before. Safe was no longer a given. All theories should have value, though, so I appreciate the thought you have put into your post. As for the girls, because Busch, Greene, Gunnels, Sloan, and Lamborgine all preferred males does not mean they did not procure kids for others who may have been looking for little girls. If Busch, Greene et.al were trolling, they would do it in the area they are most familiar with and Busch knew the area and had a large house that was pretty much empty in Bloomfield Village as well as the Ess Lake place and maybe a place in Midland, too. The Pedophie ring wasn’t limited to the names we know, there were a lot of monied people who participated as well and might go to extreme lengths to not be identified. So why would Charles Busch ask for Witness Protection? Perhaps he felt the fallout could damage his family if his brother was named – he might become the enemy of an entire state or maybe he has reason to fear those higher up monied individuals? Also just thoughts.
No ideas are immune from scrutiny except for this concept: The investigation was conducted in such a way that 40-plus years later this shit is still swirling around and is open to debate and just what you read here and in other places. And, that there are people who know what happened to these kids and who did it, and are keeping their complicit mouths shut.
Agreed. I am so sorry for that. Especially considering the mass funding given to the case, and they couldn’t even maintain the bodies properly, couldn’t maintain two separate fox island lists, etc.
I read The Kill Jar and learned some things I had not known previously. Specifically the information from the witness ‘Sebastian’. If what he says is true than there quite obviously was/is a cover up in place. I mean how the hell can cops get away with the intimidation and beatings inflicted on this person and someone not be held accountable? It is incredible, I am surprised he is still alive after reading about Flynn, etc. I have never done it before, but I would like to try water-boarding a few people!
I spoke with “Sebastian” almost a decade ago. His story has never changed. They messed with him as a kid and continued into his adulthood every chance they got. Unforgivable.
No one in Oakland County is ever accountable. That’s how they roll.
Cathy. In 2001 I testified in Wayne county that Gary McLean was the OCCK. McLean’s sister Barb Lovett in MN also named her own brother Gary McLean as the OCCK and gave Lt.Anger photos of their moms blue AMC Gremlin that McLean drove. In 2014 I was talking on Internet to Les Martin brother-in-law to OCCK suspect Gary Smentowski. Barb Lovett joined conversation and posted photos of Gary McLean.Les ID’D McLean as griend Smentowski thus connecting two OCCK suspects. I told Lea that McLean said when he had Donna Serra at cabin in 1972 cabin didn’t have siding but had siding in 1976 when OCCK kids there. Les was shocked because he helped install siding in 1974. Donna Serra was anally molested post mortem as were OCCK boys Mark and Tim. Donna Serra was kept molested by McLean and Smentowski 15 days then killed SUNDAY and DUMPED ON DAY 19.Mihelich was abducted by McLean and coworker SAAD on SUNDAY, stayed willingly with SAAD at the cabin and on Day 15 SAAD had sex with her then on DAY 19 MCLEAN DUMPED MIHELICH. On WED 12-26-76 Jill was killed boy found her bike and left it by art store lieberman and VALENTI.This reminded McLean that coworker SAAD was dating and I think married VALANTI girl. On SUNDAY 12-29-76 McLean had Smentowski’s green Ford and on Marlborough street TWO HOUSES FROM BILL & BETTY VALANTI house McLean tried to abduct 11 year old Terri Keeler. McLean coworker SAAD LIVED WITH PARENTS A FEW BLOCKS AWAY. When McLean abducted Tim he was wearing BROWN JACKET BROWN SHIRT BLACK PANTS AND HAD LET HAIR GROW LONG SIDEBURNS TAPERED WIDE AT BOTTOM POINTY IN FRONT. WHEN HE KILLED TIM HE HAD TED LAMBORGHINE IN CAR WITH HIM AND SAID THIS IS TED. Hairs on OCCK boys are from NICK and McLean knew police were searching car next day and left hair from NICK’S MOMS HAIRBRUSH IN SLOANS BONNEVILLE to mislead police. NICK WATCHED and molested boys and NIck drew sketch of Stebbins in agony in 1976. McLean mad Smentowski let Les Martin see where camera and photos were and then Smentowski tried to blackmail Norberg so McLean gave Smentowski animal tranquilizer left him halfnaked at mall looking crazy thenMcLean shot Smentowski OCT 1978 then shot Busch NOV 1978.Busch had GOLD CARPET BEDROOM. NICK SOLD CARPET. NICK GAVE MCLEAN SIMILAR SHADES LIGHT GOLD CARPET TO PUT ON EACH OCCK KID TO MESS WITH POLICE AND WHITE DOG HAIRS ON EACH KID FROM DIFFERWNT DOG. McLean got small tin phisohex from my moms house Sept 1976. No phisohex on Stebbins -didn’t have it yet. used phisohex sparingly on Jill and Kristine. Then before Tim’s murder McLean and my brother went to moms again and found BOX PHISOHEX. THAT’S WHY TWICE AS MUCH PHISOHEX ON TIM KING. On 20th anniversary of OCCK McLean REENACTED OCCK murders at murder Jonbenet Ramsey. year before murder he slept on Jonbenet’s bed in Charlevoix. Ramsey neighbor pedophile Fleet White gave McLean house key. jill Robinson J
R.killed WED 12-26-76 Jonbenet Ramsey J.R.killed WED night and found 12-26-96. OCCK kids SUN & WED and REDRESSED. Jonbenet killed WED and REDRESSED in WED underwear.Animal hair onOCCK kids and on Jonbenet.Tim King fed and killed when food partly digested. Jonbenet Ramsey fed and killed food partly digested. McLean messed up wetting fingerin mouth to clean dried blood. Left saliva DNA comingled with Jonbenet Ramsey’s blood so McLean pais doctor tofake hosdeathin 2006. McLean said police kept losing hairs so He bowedhair like a U and shoved it in Tim’s nose. McLean showef me spot along I 94 and years later saidhe buried three bodies thereKimKingKim Larrow. I played no part in murders or pedophilia. I was hit by a truck in head and suffered from amnesia but I can prove most of this with witnesses. Barb also posted in 2014 that McLean mentioned VINCE GUNNELS ti her husband.