Coincidences that he lived one street over from Busch? That he has artistic skills? That he knew so much about the case? That he had access to a house by himself during the time of the murders? That he’s been in and out of mental institutions his adult life? That he has people he has no clue who they are on his friends FACEBOOK friends list? THAT HE FITS THE EXACT COMPOSITE FROM TIMS ABDUCTION ?
-Plus- Matches 2 composite sketches from two completely different witnesses now and a polygraph test from Georgia that raised all kinds of red flags with strong recommendations that were ignored. Sounds like a suspect to me but due to Helen’s credentials was disqualified. Him talking to Helen has sure paid huge dividends all these years in regards to some type security shielding around him. You think John FB contacts are strange? You should see of the other family members FB connections. Some were screen captured and stored from several years ago before they were deleted from FB.
I have previously speculated, that Stebbins might have been abused by someone outside his family, prior to the abduction. That the first abduction might have resulted from a “recommendation” by one pervert to another, that they should “check him out”…
My question is this: Was it John Hastings or youngest brother Mike Hastings who worked at John McKinney’s art studio? Helen had told me that John worked there but I have since read others posts that it was Mike Hastings who worked there. Does any one know for sure?
It was, according to Helen Dagner, the younger brother, Michael. However, while there is documentation of him having worked at a gallery, I don’t believe it is really known if it was McKinney’s Gallery or if it was even while he was living in Michigan. Unfortunately with Dagner, speculative and provable were often blurred.
Seems like some basic facts can’t even be accurate. It’s been years now and maybe my memory is off some but I recall that Mike Hastings had his resume on line somewhere and to someone’s surprise it had Birmingham Art Gallery on it. How many Art Gallery’s were in Birmingham at the time? I never saw this resume for myself but was informed by someone outside of Helen. I understand Helen being questioned on every single thing but somethings should stand out on their own if they can. When it comes to the weird coincidences, the one I recall was that Mrs. Hastings the mom had a striking resemblance to the mystery woman composite sketch that was with John McKinney the night before at the restaurant (Before he was murdered). I remember that because Helen had the sketch comparison on her website and on her YouTube video. Helen did have indirect contact at one time with the person that was under hypnosis that made that sketch for the police. When McKinney was murdered the Hastings were going thru a rough divorce. Helen was trying to find contacts with some that might know the situation. Was never proven completely if Mrs Hastings and John McKinney were seeing each other but I believe Helen found that they both resided in Clawson at that time. Maybe there is something there or maybe there isn’t. Seems like there’s less known about McKinney’s murder than Chris Busch at this time. Could this be part of the cover up? Are there files still buried somewhere that detail McKinney’s murder? There was an art piece taken supposedly from the gallery but is there more we don’t know about? Anything left behind and still stored somewhere with possible new forensic technology could find out who was involved?
A copy of a resume sent to me in April 2006 does not show any connection to John McKinney’s art gallery. It shows “business related experience” at an art gallery in La Jolla, CA from 1992-1994 and at an art gallery in Del Mar, CA from 1998-99.
McKinney is a big problem. I think it’s because the cops killed him in September 1977. They may have thought they got the OCCK. They interrogated him, beat the shit out of him, and when he tried to bolt, he was shot. So there’s not going to be a real deep investigation into his murder. As Marney Keenan describes in her book, The Snow Killings, Det. Williams was finally able to review the McKinney file at B’ham PD (it took some doing), he observed that McKinney, due to his lifestyle “was a homicide waiting to happen.” (p. 234).
Marney’s book describes how we (not the police) learned McKinney’s business partners in his art gallery were OUR neighbors, the Coffeys. Tim was at the Coffey’s house as much as he was at home. M.F. Cribari’s book, Portraits in the Snow, breaks down the McKinney information. A friend of mine said her brother (an older teen at the time) went on a business trip with McKinney to NYC and when he came home, he was “never the same.” A friend of McKinney said that in the last six months of his life he seemed paranoid and was convinced he was being followed. Six months before his death dates back to March, when my brother was abducted and murdered.
In the universe of Unintended Consequences, how ever McKinney was “taken care of,” this is another reason we were ensured to be in the case purgatory we are in right now. None of the players foresaw Richard Lawson or Larry Wasser stirring the pot in this case decades after the fact. But with the handling of McKinney’s murder and Chris Busch’s “suicide,” my opinion is that the cops ensured that we would probably never have answers. The killers of these two men absolved themselves with the thought that there would be no more murders. And that is in fact the result. But if civilians had taken care of business this way, they would be rotting in jail. These cases could have been solved, but it would possibly reveal the cops who took care of business and the failures of the investigation which allowed three children to be taken off the streets after Mark Stebbins was abducted in broad daylight, after having been at a VFW Hall filled with freaks, in a county later known to be filled with pedophiles operating just below the radar.
As a reader pointed out, according to the FOIA documents, 4000 known pedophiles were interviewed in the late 1970s, some 500 polygraphs were administered, and the only arrest made is of Fr. Gary Berthiaume after a mother turns him in after he violated her son?!
The author of the very detailed flow chart on page 62 of Marney Keenan’s book, detailing the international network and operations of the underground multi-million dollar child prostitution and pornography industry, provided that information after he was arrested in 1976 in the Cass Corridor of Detroit. Take a good, long look at that horrific drawing. It details locations such as Wayne State University, Cranbrook Institute, Charlevoix, MI, Big Brother organization of Ann Arbor. THIS WAS PROVIDED IN 1976 and is from the MSP files. No one puts this shit together and there are no arrests (except Berthiaume) until Wayne County goes after Lawson and Lamborgine in 2005? The number of child victims is exponential due to the negligence and failures of investigators back in the day.
Read The Snow Killings, Portraits in the Snow and the Kill Jar and ask yourself how these people, including liars like Hastings and their enablers, live with themselves.
Great post Cathy! So many things I never knew. So I guess I was informed wrong all of these years. Whatever the case, was there anything ever published or even speculation who the ‘mystery woman’ was that was with John McKinney seen in the restaurant? Perhaps if the cops did this there would be nothing in the reports in regards to trying to identify her?
I believe you are meaning John Hastings in the restaurant . Yes the witness came forward sometime in the early 2000’s and clarified what he heard between Helen and John Hastings . I feel John Hastings should be under a micro scope. Sloan is in prison and so is Lamborghine. Gunnels and Hastings both should be under microscopes . I wouldn’t let up on Sloan and terrible Ted either. Sloan is getting up there in age and I wouldn’t let him pass not answering questions . So what we have are 4 suspects here that should be interrogated to the extreme.
ABSOLUTELY. Read The Last Stone: A Masterpiece of Criminal Interrogation, by Mark Bowden, to see how it’s done. The man they interrogate for a couple years is a frustrating and disgusting combination of Richard Lawson and Vince Gunnels in his demeanor and bullshit. But eventually he is left holding the bag even though he was the youngest by far (age 18) of the participants in the abduction, rape and murder of two young sisters in 1975. A portion of the sale of this book goes to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
And different restaurant situations. McKinney was seen the evening of his murder in September 1977 at a restaurant with a woman who apparently never came forward and was never identified. The restaurant incident with Hastings took place December 26, 1991 at one of the Alpena Big Boy restaurants.
I will double-check, but I don’t recall much if anything in the news clippings about the “mystery woman,” but clearly the cops had no incentive to push on this. Let sleeping dogs lie. And lying dogs sleep.
What I understood of the case. McKinney seen in restaurant with woman (composite sketch established under hypnosis from a witness at restaurant later) The next night McKinney murdered beat to near death and shot. This was at his gallery upstairs and something suspicious of a table set for two (wine glasses) like he was set up. It sure seems to me that the woman could very well have had something to do with this and if the police completely blew it off of trying to find her. Well it sure seems like the Busch so called suicide with similarities all over again. Lack of details seems to open up the speculation gates wide open to almost anything. What I remember of the composite sketch it almost looked like a hint that the woman was wearing a wig. Just the way it was drawn.
Interesting……
Yep! That’s the photo I referred to in an earlier post. He definitely has skills.
Coincidences that he lived one street over from Busch? That he has artistic skills? That he knew so much about the case? That he had access to a house by himself during the time of the murders? That he’s been in and out of mental institutions his adult life? That he has people he has no clue who they are on his friends FACEBOOK friends list? THAT HE FITS THE EXACT COMPOSITE FROM TIMS ABDUCTION ?
-Plus- Matches 2 composite sketches from two completely different witnesses now and a polygraph test from Georgia that raised all kinds of red flags with strong recommendations that were ignored. Sounds like a suspect to me but due to Helen’s credentials was disqualified. Him talking to Helen has sure paid huge dividends all these years in regards to some type security shielding around him. You think John FB contacts are strange? You should see of the other family members FB connections. Some were screen captured and stored from several years ago before they were deleted from FB.
Exactly. H did more harm than good because she was more interested in taking center stage than solving this horrible case.
agree
I want to know where this photo was taken. It is obviously a well set up art room somewhere. Gallery? School?
Right out of Brother Rice HS yearbook I believe. Probably late 60s. Someone here should know for sure.
Yes, Brother Rice 1967 yearbook.
I have previously speculated, that Stebbins might have been abused by someone outside his family, prior to the abduction. That the first abduction might have resulted from a “recommendation” by one pervert to another, that they should “check him out”…
My question is this: Was it John Hastings or youngest brother Mike Hastings who worked at John McKinney’s art studio? Helen had told me that John worked there but I have since read others posts that it was Mike Hastings who worked there. Does any one know for sure?
It was, according to Helen Dagner, the younger brother, Michael. However, while there is documentation of him having worked at a gallery, I don’t believe it is really known if it was McKinney’s Gallery or if it was even while he was living in Michigan. Unfortunately with Dagner, speculative and provable were often blurred.
Seems like some basic facts can’t even be accurate. It’s been years now and maybe my memory is off some but I recall that Mike Hastings had his resume on line somewhere and to someone’s surprise it had Birmingham Art Gallery on it. How many Art Gallery’s were in Birmingham at the time? I never saw this resume for myself but was informed by someone outside of Helen. I understand Helen being questioned on every single thing but somethings should stand out on their own if they can. When it comes to the weird coincidences, the one I recall was that Mrs. Hastings the mom had a striking resemblance to the mystery woman composite sketch that was with John McKinney the night before at the restaurant (Before he was murdered). I remember that because Helen had the sketch comparison on her website and on her YouTube video. Helen did have indirect contact at one time with the person that was under hypnosis that made that sketch for the police. When McKinney was murdered the Hastings were going thru a rough divorce. Helen was trying to find contacts with some that might know the situation. Was never proven completely if Mrs Hastings and John McKinney were seeing each other but I believe Helen found that they both resided in Clawson at that time. Maybe there is something there or maybe there isn’t. Seems like there’s less known about McKinney’s murder than Chris Busch at this time. Could this be part of the cover up? Are there files still buried somewhere that detail McKinney’s murder? There was an art piece taken supposedly from the gallery but is there more we don’t know about? Anything left behind and still stored somewhere with possible new forensic technology could find out who was involved?
I had them at one time (resumes) – hands full. Will check when I can.
A copy of a resume sent to me in April 2006 does not show any connection to John McKinney’s art gallery. It shows “business related experience” at an art gallery in La Jolla, CA from 1992-1994 and at an art gallery in Del Mar, CA from 1998-99.
McKinney is a big problem. I think it’s because the cops killed him in September 1977. They may have thought they got the OCCK. They interrogated him, beat the shit out of him, and when he tried to bolt, he was shot. So there’s not going to be a real deep investigation into his murder. As Marney Keenan describes in her book, The Snow Killings, Det. Williams was finally able to review the McKinney file at B’ham PD (it took some doing), he observed that McKinney, due to his lifestyle “was a homicide waiting to happen.” (p. 234).
Marney’s book describes how we (not the police) learned McKinney’s business partners in his art gallery were OUR neighbors, the Coffeys. Tim was at the Coffey’s house as much as he was at home. M.F. Cribari’s book, Portraits in the Snow, breaks down the McKinney information. A friend of mine said her brother (an older teen at the time) went on a business trip with McKinney to NYC and when he came home, he was “never the same.” A friend of McKinney said that in the last six months of his life he seemed paranoid and was convinced he was being followed. Six months before his death dates back to March, when my brother was abducted and murdered.
In the universe of Unintended Consequences, how ever McKinney was “taken care of,” this is another reason we were ensured to be in the case purgatory we are in right now. None of the players foresaw Richard Lawson or Larry Wasser stirring the pot in this case decades after the fact. But with the handling of McKinney’s murder and Chris Busch’s “suicide,” my opinion is that the cops ensured that we would probably never have answers. The killers of these two men absolved themselves with the thought that there would be no more murders. And that is in fact the result. But if civilians had taken care of business this way, they would be rotting in jail. These cases could have been solved, but it would possibly reveal the cops who took care of business and the failures of the investigation which allowed three children to be taken off the streets after Mark Stebbins was abducted in broad daylight, after having been at a VFW Hall filled with freaks, in a county later known to be filled with pedophiles operating just below the radar.
As a reader pointed out, according to the FOIA documents, 4000 known pedophiles were interviewed in the late 1970s, some 500 polygraphs were administered, and the only arrest made is of Fr. Gary Berthiaume after a mother turns him in after he violated her son?!
The author of the very detailed flow chart on page 62 of Marney Keenan’s book, detailing the international network and operations of the underground multi-million dollar child prostitution and pornography industry, provided that information after he was arrested in 1976 in the Cass Corridor of Detroit. Take a good, long look at that horrific drawing. It details locations such as Wayne State University, Cranbrook Institute, Charlevoix, MI, Big Brother organization of Ann Arbor. THIS WAS PROVIDED IN 1976 and is from the MSP files. No one puts this shit together and there are no arrests (except Berthiaume) until Wayne County goes after Lawson and Lamborgine in 2005? The number of child victims is exponential due to the negligence and failures of investigators back in the day.
Read The Snow Killings, Portraits in the Snow and the Kill Jar and ask yourself how these people, including liars like Hastings and their enablers, live with themselves.
Great post Cathy! So many things I never knew. So I guess I was informed wrong all of these years. Whatever the case, was there anything ever published or even speculation who the ‘mystery woman’ was that was with John McKinney seen in the restaurant? Perhaps if the cops did this there would be nothing in the reports in regards to trying to identify her?
I believe you are meaning John Hastings in the restaurant . Yes the witness came forward sometime in the early 2000’s and clarified what he heard between Helen and John Hastings . I feel John Hastings should be under a micro scope. Sloan is in prison and so is Lamborghine. Gunnels and Hastings both should be under microscopes . I wouldn’t let up on Sloan and terrible Ted either. Sloan is getting up there in age and I wouldn’t let him pass not answering questions . So what we have are 4 suspects here that should be interrogated to the extreme.
ABSOLUTELY. Read The Last Stone: A Masterpiece of Criminal Interrogation, by Mark Bowden, to see how it’s done. The man they interrogate for a couple years is a frustrating and disgusting combination of Richard Lawson and Vince Gunnels in his demeanor and bullshit. But eventually he is left holding the bag even though he was the youngest by far (age 18) of the participants in the abduction, rape and murder of two young sisters in 1975. A portion of the sale of this book goes to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
And different restaurant situations. McKinney was seen the evening of his murder in September 1977 at a restaurant with a woman who apparently never came forward and was never identified. The restaurant incident with Hastings took place December 26, 1991 at one of the Alpena Big Boy restaurants.
I will double-check, but I don’t recall much if anything in the news clippings about the “mystery woman,” but clearly the cops had no incentive to push on this. Let sleeping dogs lie. And lying dogs sleep.
What I understood of the case. McKinney seen in restaurant with woman (composite sketch established under hypnosis from a witness at restaurant later) The next night McKinney murdered beat to near death and shot. This was at his gallery upstairs and something suspicious of a table set for two (wine glasses) like he was set up. It sure seems to me that the woman could very well have had something to do with this and if the police completely blew it off of trying to find her. Well it sure seems like the Busch so called suicide with similarities all over again. Lack of details seems to open up the speculation gates wide open to almost anything. What I remember of the composite sketch it almost looked like a hint that the woman was wearing a wig. Just the way it was drawn.