Oh wow that wall fiber that was taken from McKinnys gallery was seen hanging on John Hastings apartment in Alpena. Well so Helen said. I know she recanted on a lot of her stuff on the case. Can anyone fill me in on what McKinnys death has to do with the OCCK case?
It is so difficult to determine if Helen tells the truth on anything. However one thing to point out on this particular claim from her was she describes the size and colors of this wall hanging in detail. She even goes against the dimensions known and specified in article and the colors which were never given out as far as I know. If she is accurate on her description of this thing then one must ask why? Whatever the case, she goes into detail on this on her YourTube video. I believe Mrs. H. already discussed on here was overlayed in the graphics with the mystery woman sketch someway in that same video. Very creepy how it was done to say the least.
The piece missing from McKinney’s gallery was by fiber artist, Jane Knight, who was well known in the medium. I believe she died in 2013. Here is a link to one of her pieces and a little about her. I honestly do not recall Helen Dagner saying that Hastings had THE piece hanging in his apartment in Alpena (not doubting it), nor do I recall her knowing details about it. In fact, an email from Helen in 2006 says, “[I] have thought about the wall hanging so much….that my mind is bogged~~I remember that it was really well done….so nuch [sic] so that it looked store bought….and also that it had a fringe like the very bottom….and the design could have been that as I remember thinking~It has no design…..it did hang the same way.”
I also don’t know if it was ever recovered or if it is forever missing. As for McKinney’s death and the OCCK, his murder came on the heels of Tim’s murder. . .both unsolved and both in a small community that prided itself on being a foundation of all that is wholesome (just don’t lift the expensive rugs up and see what’s underneath.) It was suspect. Then, MF Cribari wrote Portaits in the Snow which makes a very strong case for McKinney being involved.
Hi Judi; I know this stuff gets very tricky with Helen as Alpena Witness pointed out recently in his interview available on here. Unless I recall wrong though, I remember details right in Helen’s YouTube video over this art piece. That video is going on 10 years old now easily and I believe it’s still available on YouTube. Maybe someone can find the link. She actually shows John’s apartment, details written on the screen of the wall hanging art including dimensions, she shows the colors that she recalled it having hung in John’s apartment. Were those details ever published anywhere? Now granted maybe she got the details from you or someone else that may know something about it and that might explain how and why she knew so much. Also maybe her details are not accurate. It’s all open for debate and unfortunately that is all that these cases seem to have.
So this mystery woman never surfaced and never made herself known to the Birmingham P.D., even though the man with whom she had coffee was then violently murdered less than 24 hours later.
It’s hard to think of an innocent explanation – although, as has been speculated before, she might have been carrying on an affair with McKinney.
Nonetheless, it seems impossible that if she had nothing to do with his murder, that she would have remained completely hidden from an investigation involving “thousands of hours in their hunt for the late Mr. John W. McKinney’s killer.”
He lived 5 minutes from his store. He “worked late” but didn’t make the 5 minute drive home to sleep in his own home with his wife and children.
Probably in Detroit with the “troubled individuals” he associated with. Wonder if they have names, and if any of those names are from the shit pile of child molesters they knew of. Wouldn’t be surprised.
Read M.F. Cribari’s book, Portraits in the Snow (2011). I call him Fucking John McKinney because he further fucked up the solving of this case. Odds are he got offed by police who believed he was the OCCK or involved. Therefore no one can dig into his sordid past because no one wants to go too deep. “He’s not the OCCK,” said police to no one in particular and not in response to any questions along those lines.
If there was anyone in Oakland county with forensic capability and trust worthy crime storage, could it be determined if it was from that same gun? Does Santa Claus really exist?
It’s been quite a few years since I’ve looked at H Dagner’s youtube archives, but now that I’ve read the most recent books, listened to related podcasts, and read the FOIA docs, it sheds some new light on things that didn’t make sense early on.
In Dagner’s archive #8, it states McKinney had dinner at the Landmark restaurant in Troy, MI with a mystery woman before he was killed. Helen’s video also states the Hasting family knew McKinney, and both frequented the Landmark restaurant often. Of course, there’s that strange hanging piece of fiber wall art that was missing for McKinney’s studio in which Helen stated John H. had, and she described the art piece with info not given to the public. And we all know John was in an artist. It was something he was passionate about that we have proof of.
My first exposer to this case was as a child. Not till 2013 did I become interested in reading what anyone had to say about this case. I must admit, I wished Helen’s version was not the first theory I was exposed to, but one thing’s for sure, she invested many years into this, and she did help stir up things when all was quiet on the LE front for so many years.
Hi Robin. One reason why Helen might have known so much about the Landmarks restaurant was she supposedly had indirect contact with the person that established that sketch from hypnosis. Regardless of her doings, she did draw people to her website and that point should be well taken. She had at one time on her website that sketch alongside Mrs Hastings with a wig on and it sure got people’s attention. Of course the witness to this sketch wanted to know more so they started to communicate. This does explain some how Helen knew some details from Landmarks restaurant and the witness but it doesn’t explain her knowing about the art piece itself except for maybe the possibilities discussed above or some of her other contacts. Could John have had this hanging in Alpena in his apartment? I sure wouldn’t rule it out. Who would know what is was at that time?
Around the 5 minute mark. There is an incredible amount of details given on this wall hanging art that John supposedly hung in his apartment. Showing in print on the video. Even shows the color scheme of this thing with animation. Helen sure has a lot of imagination. Maybe they should have given her the polygraph instead?
I think the color scheme animation is in another later segment but she does describe it here quite well. It’s been years since I’ve been thru these. I’m done now. Helen is one topic that is never going to go away completely. Cathy, I’m sorry for cluttering your blog.
Not until March 17 when she found out Tim was missing. She called the tip line but LE never followed up. When LE embarked on a door to door in the area (before Tim’s body was dumped), she thought they were there to question her about the tip. They responded that they weren’t aware of her tip and were not interested in it then either. I do know approximately 300 tips were erased in the first few days accidentally ( or not) and have always wondered if her call was among those erased.
The article says McKinney worked at The little Gallery for 15 years before opening his gallery. The Little Gallery was owned by Peggy Desalle. Cranbrook connections. https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/99517238/
“…a minister who enjoyed spending time at nursing homes, particularly with elderly patients…”
Busch was working as a chef at a nursing home at the time of his death; as this site has mentioned, he was killed the day he was to start a new position at another area nursing home.
Artist Jane Knight “designed” for the Cranbrook theater school. Her husband was employed by Eero Saarinen, who I believe designed parts of the Cranbrook campus?
A “counselor” for “troubled individuals”. At the end of the day, going by Fox Island’s own literature, wasn’t Shelden something of a “counselor” as well? The boards he served on would surely have put him in the same circles as the illustrious circle Knight is said to have inhabited.
McKinney was located by the back door. From an article on the gallery:
“The last room is the framing gallery, where customers can bring their own pieces to be framed in gallery-quality, custom frames for a reasonable price.”
Interesting assumption made by the press that he probably wandered around after being shot. Sounds equally likely that he was struck upstairs and killed downstairs.
I haven’t seen the picture of Hastings’ mother, but the drawing sure does resemble the photo of Jane Burgess I’ve seen, and we all know she was in the bigger picture at the time.
Oh wow that wall fiber that was taken from McKinnys gallery was seen hanging on John Hastings apartment in Alpena. Well so Helen said. I know she recanted on a lot of her stuff on the case. Can anyone fill me in on what McKinnys death has to do with the OCCK case?
It is so difficult to determine if Helen tells the truth on anything. However one thing to point out on this particular claim from her was she describes the size and colors of this wall hanging in detail. She even goes against the dimensions known and specified in article and the colors which were never given out as far as I know. If she is accurate on her description of this thing then one must ask why? Whatever the case, she goes into detail on this on her YourTube video. I believe Mrs. H. already discussed on here was overlayed in the graphics with the mystery woman sketch someway in that same video. Very creepy how it was done to say the least.
The piece missing from McKinney’s gallery was by fiber artist, Jane Knight, who was well known in the medium. I believe she died in 2013. Here is a link to one of her pieces and a little about her. I honestly do not recall Helen Dagner saying that Hastings had THE piece hanging in his apartment in Alpena (not doubting it), nor do I recall her knowing details about it. In fact, an email from Helen in 2006 says, “[I] have thought about the wall hanging so much….that my mind is bogged~~I remember that it was really well done….so nuch [sic] so that it looked store bought….and also that it had a fringe like the very bottom….and the design could have been that as I remember thinking~It has no design…..it did hang the same way.”
I also don’t know if it was ever recovered or if it is forever missing. As for McKinney’s death and the OCCK, his murder came on the heels of Tim’s murder. . .both unsolved and both in a small community that prided itself on being a foundation of all that is wholesome (just don’t lift the expensive rugs up and see what’s underneath.) It was suspect. Then, MF Cribari wrote Portaits in the Snow which makes a very strong case for McKinney being involved.
https://20cdesign.com/product/eye-by-fiber-artist-jane-knight/
Hi Judi; I know this stuff gets very tricky with Helen as Alpena Witness pointed out recently in his interview available on here. Unless I recall wrong though, I remember details right in Helen’s YouTube video over this art piece. That video is going on 10 years old now easily and I believe it’s still available on YouTube. Maybe someone can find the link. She actually shows John’s apartment, details written on the screen of the wall hanging art including dimensions, she shows the colors that she recalled it having hung in John’s apartment. Were those details ever published anywhere? Now granted maybe she got the details from you or someone else that may know something about it and that might explain how and why she knew so much. Also maybe her details are not accurate. It’s all open for debate and unfortunately that is all that these cases seem to have.
Oooppps I just saw Robin’s post below mine referring to the same thing. Sorry.
Helen Dagner, Art Critic: “It’s so good that it looks store bought”;
A Birmingham cop confessed to my friend that McKinney is the child killer. But they can’t charge him… so cops shot him
So this mystery woman never surfaced and never made herself known to the Birmingham P.D., even though the man with whom she had coffee was then violently murdered less than 24 hours later.
It’s hard to think of an innocent explanation – although, as has been speculated before, she might have been carrying on an affair with McKinney.
Nonetheless, it seems impossible that if she had nothing to do with his murder, that she would have remained completely hidden from an investigation involving “thousands of hours in their hunt for the late Mr. John W. McKinney’s killer.”
Welcome to Birmingham, Michigan.
He lived 5 minutes from his store. He “worked late” but didn’t make the 5 minute drive home to sleep in his own home with his wife and children.
Probably in Detroit with the “troubled individuals” he associated with. Wonder if they have names, and if any of those names are from the shit pile of child molesters they knew of. Wouldn’t be surprised.
Which is probably why he got offed and why the investigation into his death was so anemic.
So is this possibility the reason why you call him Fucking John McKinney? Just trying to place him somewhere in this mega case.
Read M.F. Cribari’s book, Portraits in the Snow (2011). I call him Fucking John McKinney because he further fucked up the solving of this case. Odds are he got offed by police who believed he was the OCCK or involved. Therefore no one can dig into his sordid past because no one wants to go too deep. “He’s not the OCCK,” said police to no one in particular and not in response to any questions along those lines.
Yes cops confessed to shooting McKinney
.22 caliber .Same as Chris Busch.Wonder if it was the same hit man for both jobs.
If there was anyone in Oakland county with forensic capability and trust worthy crime storage, could it be determined if it was from that same gun? Does Santa Claus really exist?
It’s been quite a few years since I’ve looked at H Dagner’s youtube archives, but now that I’ve read the most recent books, listened to related podcasts, and read the FOIA docs, it sheds some new light on things that didn’t make sense early on.
In Dagner’s archive #8, it states McKinney had dinner at the Landmark restaurant in Troy, MI with a mystery woman before he was killed. Helen’s video also states the Hasting family knew McKinney, and both frequented the Landmark restaurant often. Of course, there’s that strange hanging piece of fiber wall art that was missing for McKinney’s studio in which Helen stated John H. had, and she described the art piece with info not given to the public. And we all know John was in an artist. It was something he was passionate about that we have proof of.
My first exposer to this case was as a child. Not till 2013 did I become interested in reading what anyone had to say about this case. I must admit, I wished Helen’s version was not the first theory I was exposed to, but one thing’s for sure, she invested many years into this, and she did help stir up things when all was quiet on the LE front for so many years.
Hi Robin. One reason why Helen might have known so much about the Landmarks restaurant was she supposedly had indirect contact with the person that established that sketch from hypnosis. Regardless of her doings, she did draw people to her website and that point should be well taken. She had at one time on her website that sketch alongside Mrs Hastings with a wig on and it sure got people’s attention. Of course the witness to this sketch wanted to know more so they started to communicate. This does explain some how Helen knew some details from Landmarks restaurant and the witness but it doesn’t explain her knowing about the art piece itself except for maybe the possibilities discussed above or some of her other contacts. Could John have had this hanging in Alpena in his apartment? I sure wouldn’t rule it out. Who would know what is was at that time?
She created a mess that bogged down investigation into this case.
OK I just found it on YouTube! It’s actually #9 of her archives. I will try to provide the link next line if it works
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD0SAZpfnm4
which has a heading of (Youtube title)
OCCK_HD_Archives_Pt9.avi
Around the 5 minute mark. There is an incredible amount of details given on this wall hanging art that John supposedly hung in his apartment. Showing in print on the video. Even shows the color scheme of this thing with animation. Helen sure has a lot of imagination. Maybe they should have given her the polygraph instead?
I think the color scheme animation is in another later segment but she does describe it here quite well. It’s been years since I’ve been thru these. I’m done now. Helen is one topic that is never going to go away completely. Cathy, I’m sorry for cluttering your blog.
Did Polly call the police and report the suspicious car circling Popleton Park
and her neighborhood on 3/16/77?
Not until March 17 when she found out Tim was missing. She called the tip line but LE never followed up. When LE embarked on a door to door in the area (before Tim’s body was dumped), she thought they were there to question her about the tip. They responded that they weren’t aware of her tip and were not interested in it then either. I do know approximately 300 tips were erased in the first few days accidentally ( or not) and have always wondered if her call was among those erased.
OMG. Erased.
Thank you! Otherwise it would have been hell to find it. Will watch.
Yes they should have polygraphed her and shut her down.
The article says McKinney worked at The little Gallery for 15 years before opening his gallery. The Little Gallery was owned by Peggy Desalle. Cranbrook connections.
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/99517238/
“…a minister who enjoyed spending time at nursing homes, particularly with elderly patients…”
Busch was working as a chef at a nursing home at the time of his death; as this site has mentioned, he was killed the day he was to start a new position at another area nursing home.
Artist Jane Knight “designed” for the Cranbrook theater school. Her husband was employed by Eero Saarinen, who I believe designed parts of the Cranbrook campus?
A “counselor” for “troubled individuals”. At the end of the day, going by Fox Island’s own literature, wasn’t Shelden something of a “counselor” as well? The boards he served on would surely have put him in the same circles as the illustrious circle Knight is said to have inhabited.
McKinney was located by the back door. From an article on the gallery:
“The last room is the framing gallery, where customers can bring their own pieces to be framed in gallery-quality, custom frames for a reasonable price.”
Interesting assumption made by the press that he probably wandered around after being shot. Sounds equally likely that he was struck upstairs and killed downstairs.
I haven’t seen the picture of Hastings’ mother, but the drawing sure does resemble the photo of Jane Burgess I’ve seen, and we all know she was in the bigger picture at the time.