Take a listen to Episode 1 of The Deep Dark Podcast, a new podcast addressing the OCCK case:

Next, from a reader:

“The OakPark, Illinois police repeatedly deny FOIA requests when they stopped investigating the case 4 months after the murder nearly 40 years ago. How does that saying go? History doesn’t repeat but it sure as hell rhymes.”

The Kathleen Lombardo murder in Oak Park and an obviously related stabbing and attempted rape of Grace Puccetti remain unsolved. The Lombardo murder deeply affected a young neighbor, the late crime writer Michelle McNamara, and later set her on a path to become a crime writer. Watch the latest episode of I’ll Be Gone in the Dark (HBO, Season 1, Episode 7, last week) which covers the powerful testimony of survivors and victims’ family members at the Golden State Killer’s sentencing hearing, and addresses the typical intransigent agency behavior exhibited by the Oak Park PD in the Lombardo murder and the attack on Puccetti. Open case my ass. Unsolved, uncleared but certainly not “open” for purposes of evading FOIA requests.

Listen to the discussion of how police and officials try to white wash crimes, and the fallout for those left behind.

[K]eep in mind that I’ll Be Gone in the Dark as a docuseries was never really a GSK [Golden State Killer] story, but a story about why these cases are worth solving. It’s not because puzzles are fun or that these monsters are interesting. It’s because they can provide an element of closure and peace, so while there is certainly thrill for the true-crime author in digging through documents and trying to piece together an answer, the good on the other side is that people who suffered can start a new chapter. These crimes create a psychic wound, and those wounds can only heal when the shadowy figure is brought into the light. 

Court battles and docuseries and podcasts and families having to carry the ball. Sound familiar?

44 thoughts on “Listen/Watch”

  1. He had the CA charge that got Greg Greene caught incorrect.
    While it was a member of his little league team, the victim that got him caught was lured into the woods on a false pretense of retrieving a bicycle.

  2. Thanks Cathy, this was a interesting podcast. He seems to have very detailed autopsy information that I have never heard before, I wonder where he gets his information? These podcasts are good in the sense that they do keep the case in the public eye. I dont know if there are any new developments on the case that I have heard recently but, if so I would like to see someone do a podcast about whats being done to solve the case currently.

    Thanks again.


    1. That would be a very short podcast, Jeremy. Nanoseconds, in fact. The only work being done on this or related cases is by civilians. Unpaid civilians who get thwarted by illegal FOIA responses by agencies engaged in CYA. That detailed autopsy info has all been posted on my blog. The transcript of the Spitz autopsy discussion (my brother), some autopsy notes/reports for all four kids in the MSP FOIA response and notes regarding all but Kristine’s case in Cooper’s documents provided to the media and then my Dad. Those documents do not include any information regarding Kristine’s autopsy and they should because Brooks Patterson injected himself into the OCCK case when Kris’ body was found. In a big way.

      1. Very interesting that LBrooks inserted himself into Kristine’s case – and then we had the semen found/no semen found discrepancy as well as the Vince Gunnels connection. Does anyone really believe Kristine was held for 17 days and not sexually assaulted? Why hasn’t more pressure been put on Gunnels and his brother . I don’t care how many drugs they’ve done since – they remember.

        1. Nineteen days. And yes, that is what Oakland County wanted you to believe. Only teenage girls who are babysitting or hitch hiking get raped and murdered in OC. Preteen kids get abducted and murdered, but the girls don’t get raped and the boys get raped post-mortem. OC kids get “babysat” after being abducted, before they get offed. See? In our wealthy, white county even our serial murders are “nicer!” And our pedophiles often wear suits, clerical collars or carry badges. It’s just better that way. And that’s exactly why the two Gunnels brothers got told to keep their mouths shut forever. You’re damn right they remember. I would think that shit would be impossible to forget.

          1. Jeez, Cathy. No sociologist could best your analysis. On my most emotional level I want to believe you’re wrong, but on my most cognitive level, I know you’re right. In other words, you’re right. We have to change the privileged narrative…..Jeez!

          2. Nineteen days – sorry – I want to get that right for Kristine’s sake. Gunnels remembers – you bet he does. The drugs are probably a way to temporarily forget. I really think the brother and other members of Gunnels family need to be pressured, come on OC prosecutors – do the right thing!!

      2. Thank you Cathy, I guess i missed it on your blog. The one thing he said about Helen Dagner given questions by the police to ask John Hastings and he did not answer them correctly, I have to assume that Hastings knew Helen Dagner went to the police and of course he wouldnt answer the questions correctly, he didnt want to go to prison. The more I read, the more I am convinced that Hastings is heavily involved in the OCCK killings, just my opinon.

        1. I agree. To clarify, a tip was called in on Hastings in 1977 after Tim was found dead. Helen and John cross paths decades later in Alpena and she called police on him in 1992. He was fucking with her to some extent but I believe he was a child hunter and knows much about these crimes and probably participated at some level in one or all four of the crimes. I think he is a sick fuck who got off on taking more credit for his participation/knowledge in/of these crimes in his discussions with Helen. I also believe that the Birmingham PD was “called off” in 1992, that they all used their favorite method to make a suspect go away–a passed polygraph! (Tim’s case only.) No more Hastings, no more possibility of linking to neighbors H. Lee Busch, Chris Busch and others involved in raping and sexually assaulting children. No possibility of looking at the ring of sick fuckers in Oakland County.

          But then Georgia Highway Patrol polygraphs this POS on the other three kids’ cases in 2009, as a favor to the MSP. GHP doesn’t answer to Brooks Patterson or the MSP. So guess what? Hastings doesn’t pass, and the FOIA documents clearly establish this. But the results get ditched and the MSP never circles back to John Hastings or his lying family. His DNA does not match any of the evidence LE managed to salvage. Because there was more than one man involved in these crimes, the lack of a nuclear DNA match (in a case where the evidence was handled and stored unprofessionally, even for those days), really means nothing.

          Just my opinion.

  3. I guess it wasn’t a Gremlin but he says rather a Pontiac Tempest or Buick Skylark. Someone write this down so I can remember it.

    1. I believe multiple vehicles were used in the killings. Doug Wilson was a automotive designer and he knows cars. He said he saw a 1973 Pontiac Lemans at the Hunter Maple Pharmacy, and I have to believe he knows exactly what that car is.

      1. In Wilson’s 1977 hypnosis statement, he said the vehicle was a Cutlass. In his 2012 statement, he said it was a LeMans.
        (Keenan’s book page 179)
        So many contradictions to have to sort through.

  4. Cathy, I found this summary overwhelming and was left feeling multiple layers of the investigation perplexing. You have the insight and I stand by for closure in our lifetime. Thinking of you and all victim families always.

  5. Agree with everyone on keeping this case alive. However, I find listening to this as very painful. Mostly old rehashed stuff and a good part of it is not even accurate anymore. Someone wake me up when JH is covered in one of these.

    1. I’m with you, wake me up when the media puts the screws to JH. I’m flabbergasted that he’s been brushed under the rug over and over and over. All because Helen fabricated some of the issues. Hastings is ALIVE and living his miserable life. They can’t investigate Busch, Greene, Sheldon , Moore. Gunnels has amnesia. Who does Hastings know? How convenient that JH moves to Georgia alone .

      1. At the very least the reasons why Duncan made the conclusions to JH’s polygraph should be uncovered and revealed. The public should demand answers about JH. What are the real facts behind his polygraph and why did MSP mysterious bury it somewhere? I don’t think that day will ever come though and podcasts like this stirs it further away from ever happening.

        1. So the MSP and our attorney general are going to blow Duncan’s conclusions off because they are just his opinion ? The public is supposed to ignore John Hastings because It’s just Duncan’s opinion that Hastings was involved ? Please by all means PROVE that fucking goof ball wasnt involved. He’s innocent my ass because his DNA wasn’t there. I’d more like to know if Hastings ever drove Sloans car. Did Hastings know Gunnels. I already believe there’s no freaking doubt he knew Busch. Same age, lived two streets from each other and both cooks. THEY KNEW EACH OTHER! So if they are going to not look into John Boy, there’s zero hope right? What else is there,?

          1. The only possibility is for some big time author or documentary series to come out and document this for what it really is based on the known facts and gets the attention. All of the podcast stuff is quite useless as it’s for such a small audience anyway. Need to put a major fire under someone’s ass and to wake everyone up.

  6. I need to listen again, but I believe I heard (for the first time that I can recall) a reference to Busch having a sexual relationship with an adult woman. I don’t even recall hearing this before. Can anyone shed light on this? Thanks

    1. Yes. It’s there in the FOIA documents. After Greg Greene is arrested in Flint in January 1977 and tells police Busch killed Mark Stebbins, the task force is called and Busch is arrested. During an interview Busch says some shit like he just had his first woman up to the Ess Lake cabin. No name and no doubt no follow up.

      Once the searchable document repository is up it will be easier to access information. I posted the FOIA documents in the purposefully disjointed, bullshit manner the MSP and the OCP provided them. I give this podcaster credit for carefully wading through these documents.

  7. Considering that Helen’s previous husband (Wally) was a cop (committed suicide), and she had a daughter that was a cop. The cop that actually was enticing to Helen to ‘find out something only the killer would know’ happen to have a relationship with Helen. Base on FOIA papers, Helen was actually in love with this cop. I guess she was embarrassing him with the whole police department at the time. Let’s just say, I must guess that JH knew very well what he was doing. The stage was already set to get as much attention as possible. Kind of like Dennis Radar trying so hard to relive his crimes. (Remember the cereal box stunt and all?) Strategy was to feed just enough truth to get attention but not enough to ever get pinned for knowing something. Because Helen was so intertwined with the police and had spent some time in prison for fraud charges the stage was set. JH couldn’t find a better source then Helen and for his case, it was practically a gift delivered to him. After discussing it for 9 months with Helen with map drawing and all, he was most definitely striving for attention. With the whole history of Helen after those days is kind of a story in itself and how it manifest as it did. Some how JH knew that this circus event would steer him further away from being a viable suspect but at the same time able to relive his crimes by talking about them. What other motive would anyone have? Maybe just maybe he also knew that when the police found out who he was and his connection to Busch, that they would avoid the whole thing. Something that Cathy thinks is what actually happened. All these years later and we have dime store analysts pointing out that JH wasn’t accurate with some of his details. No shit Dick Tracy!

    1. If there are any readers from Alpena who knew what the city/town was like during that time, I’d like to know the likelihood that Hastings did, in fact, have a realistic and probable idea of the cop Dagner was reporting to and why. I’ve never been there and have zero idea if that is a possibility. However, I did live in Birmingham at the time and I have also lived in a small town. The likelihood of that happening in Birmingham was very small BUT in the other small town- absolutely. Hastings said what he said, there is a witness, so was he intentionally misleading? Good point, Inquisitor.

      1. Just imagine Dennis Radar visiting somewhere like Mayberry R.F.D.. Ready to go on stage with a woman that was a nut and already known in town for it and was ready to take on the police department since her family were part of it and the whole world if anything gets in the way. Decades later GHP are the only ones that could make an honest assessment as they were didn’t know about the nonsense and obscurity of the whole thing.

        1. The case was manipulated so it would never be solved. Hastings and Helen were therefore a big problem they made go away. They were just lucky Helen was so easy to discredit. And you can only imagine how much these types HATE having a woman pushing their buttons and questioning their bullshit. Leaving all of the drama aside, they would not go near Hastings because of his connection to Busch and to the highly placed men engaged in child rape in Oakland County. And that continued after the problematic polygraph in Georgia by a professional who could not be railroaded or bought off.

          1. Well then the only solution is Catherine moves back and runs for higher office. Cut out the middle man. Hastings has NEVER been a main suspect. The only one mentioning him to an extreme was Helen and look how that turned out. Heather Catello where are you? I mean Corey hasn’t even EVER mentioned him. It’s almost like he doesn’t exist in this case. It’s insane considering he’s the MOST logical suspect . Oh he’s not because Helen lied and there’s no Hastings DNA. There’s much more to why this fucker was involved than no matching DNA

            1. Poor Cathy has done so much as there really nothing else that can be done and there is such a barrier to finding the truth. A huge cover up on the whole Oakland Country pedophile side and some obvious lost or withholding of evidence of JH polygraph results/conclusions that could be a break in the case. Very likely ignored and never even reviewed for it’s worth back in it’s day. Seems like there are huge egos at stake here as well if Helen is proven to be partially correct. Would be unbearable for many to face. Let’s just say there would be plenty of crow to go around for many to eat. Without a huge public demand for answers surrounding JH nothing will ever become. If he is still alive today maybe he should just come forward with what he knows so his miserable life could have some resulting meaning and value to it.

              1. Or it was reviewed and quickly determined that it needed to be disappeared ASAP – before anyone else heard it and certainly before Cory found out about it’s existence and the assessment of if by the GSP.

                1. Very valid point. I’m sure Mr. Gray didn’t think it would ever surface and see the light of day. Looking at it now, it obviously is crying for attention. Like finding a message in a bottle asking for desperate help!

  8. I wonder why they did the Georgia polygraph at all. Because Cory Williams pushed for it?

    If OC knew all along that JH was involved, then they took a big risk here. Or were they really clueless regarding JH and surprised by the results?!

    1. I believe it was totally to just have their bases covered. A check mark for Mr Gray that they pursued looking into JH and found nothing. When one reads over the FOIA papers, their interview with him in Georgia it seems clear that Mr. Gray’s mind was already made up. And surely because Mr Gray & Mr. Williams were not even present when the actual polygraph was conducted as they were already on their way back to Michigan, they were obviously not interested. His DNA did not match and that was all they needed to have. Case closed. As far as the results of the poly. I have to really wonder how much they really into it. Cory seems to know nothing about the red flags raised until recently as he was taken off the case. Mr. Gray if he even did look at it, must have decided to bury it as his mind was already made up.

      1. It’ was a vendetta against Helen. Gray and Helen didn’t see eye to eye. I’ve NEVER heard Corey mention Hastings as a suspect. Hastings was never a suspect really until the failed polygraph. I always felt he was the MOST possible suspect well before the polygraph. What kind of freak brings a book of serial killers to a police questioning? It would make the whole task force look like shit if Hastings was found guilty. Knowing Helen was right for all those years and they completely blew her off as a nut case.

        1. JN you sure got that right! Helen was a thorn to Gray’s side. Ones that knew Gray well knew how much Gray would downright get emotionally upset over Helen. It was quite obvious and pathetic. Like many in LE staff, too many to name, there was no way they were going to take shit from a woman on the internet with a bad reputation. As Helen would trace her website attendance thru IP addresses, she determined that Gray’s office was practically camped on her website on a daily basis for hours. Some people may still have emails from Helen showing some of those stats. So there is no doubt that Gray would even throw away any evidence or information that may actually help solve the case if it relates to Helen. As some here are suggesting. Absolutely as his ego got in the way of any other matters. By throwing Cory to the side because of Helen is proof of that as well. (Marney’s book) Some readers out there may consider this just some conspiracy gossip crap. The proof is in the pudding if someone in high authority can go dig for it. The FOIA papers showing Duncan’s conclusions is a start. Would like someone from Oakland County or MSP try to explain that!

  9. The DNA and polygraph aspects are interesting… Hastings is innocent because his DNA doesn’t match. However you have a match with Gunnels (I understand mitochondrial DNA) and nobody cares. Busch got cleared because he ‘passed’ a polygraph, yet Hastings basically fails and nobody cares about that either.

    Why do they do any testing at all? Oh wait, I forgot, they stopped testing and investigating.

    Anyone know when that podcast is coming out with the Oakland County Prosecutor? I bet it will only be softball questions…

      1. I love Drunk History. However, there is a lot of truth in the Drunk History episodes. If anyone watched the OCCK episode, people would think the show jumped the shark and resorted to making up lies and cover ups because no investigation could be this effed up.

        1. DH had great facts and story lines. It might help to get some of these fuckers drunk so they would speak more truthfully. Takin it to the grave, the dirty bastards.

  10. I have hogged this blog more than too much lately. I’m taking a break so things can go back to regular schedule programming. So long and I’m sorry.

  11. Hello FuckOffFBI from Reddit. Your analysis post (Good Cop Bad Cop) and dissecting from one of my post here is quite excellent. I doubt you’ll ever get much interaction from it over there though but what you additionally describe is exactly how this all went down from my observations thru the years as well. Your alias name is very telling although I feel only the FBI could come in and clean up this whole damn OCCK mess. It sure won’t be the MSP or anyone from Oakland County that is for sure. An FBI investigation from higher up in the organization (more at federal level) could easily dig up the obvious ‘cover up’ elements to this case (Especially the very obvious Mr. Gray’s doings) and get the hidden truth out of Duncan’s conclusions from the past maybe by demanding answers from that organization directly from the FBI. Maybe even pursue the case with new findings but is there anyone in the whole FBI organization interested? Thus your alias name has special meaning.

    Anyway your post has been read and thanks.

  12. Interesting, Inquisitor. And while the only hope is some kind of federal intervention here, I believe the FBI is dirty in this case as evidenced by their treatment of the Doug Wilson information. When a legit and committed agent assigned to this case retired about a decade ago, the OCP must have jumped for joy when one of their moles, previously an attorney for that office, became the SA in charge of this case.

    1. The problem with that is the FBI is the federal government. I feel pressure needs to be put on the siblings. Actor Mike, Fat lying Mary , Mute Tom and looney Patty. There’s just not much mentioned as JH as a suspect. The only source really is from Helen and she’s gone. This Duncan needs to be brought up front circle and needs to speak in front of the media about his findings . No DVD , nothing in print. We need to hear it right out of his mouth. As another year goes by that this space cadet keeps walking freely in the Atlanta suburbs.

    2. Hi Cathy;
      I hear you. I remember your old posts showing very disappointing views in the FBI from the Detroit offices over the whole OCCK history however I feel higher ups in the FBI could probably make a difference and force some answers out of this damn thing after so many decades of bullshit. It sure appears to me that anyone avoiding revealing the Duncan conclusions is harboring terrorists mainly the MSP and Gray’s own precious ego that are in jeopardy and someone at a federal level should be pushing for some answers.

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