A Reminder

A reminder of just how very outrageous it is that the OCCK case was never solved, that my brother was murdered less than a month after Chris Busch was allowed to walk, that the information revealed in this case beginning in 2006 has been ignored and shrugged off, that it took over $11,000 in costs for FOIA documents to get any answers at all, and that the response of the Michigan State Police and the Oakland County Prosecutor’s office continues to be silence:


Evil all the way around.

33 thoughts on “A Reminder”

  1. What I find it hard to fathom is how in Gods name does the MSP brush Duncan’s findings under the rug? How do they lose the DVD? Are they just going to act like the polygraph never happened? Fuck that !!! It was said that asshole drove a Light colored LeMans . Is that true? Was he the asshole that bumped into Polly? Did he know Busch , Sloan or Gunnels. These are very important questions that NEED to be answered before this fruit cake dies

  2. Ohhh the frustration grows inside me and and there is no where to throw it, I wish I never was almost kidnapped right after Timothy King but I was and I have to live with this crap that they never were caught okay I give it to God and hope it will all make sense to me someday my life has had to go on knowing what I know, knowing I have tried to get someone to listen to me, but okay we will just have to accept this is a prayer unanswered for a reason I will never understand, I am a God fearing woman and well just keep praying for this to come to a close and may God hold all those that let this case go til now responsible for the unanswered and no closure to all of us victims, and to all those that deserve to have their fingers and penis cut off hanging upside down as the blood drains from their evil bodies, they escaped the punishment this far but the sun is still going up and down and it can still happen.
    I pray for all the families to find a peace somehow in all of this I have had to and just accept I don’t know everything, and may never understand why these dang things happen but I know there is that possibility that it may never be solved and the man who had my arms may die before it is forsure known, I accept it, I give up trying to get MSP to do anything, they have my phone number if they need me for anything sick of them and their lying detective lips.
    I am sorry kids Tim, Jill, Mark, and Kristine we have tried and tried and no one wants to help us that have information to help your cases get solved. I fight for all of you not myself.

  3. Law Enforcement failed and made dozens and dozens of mistakes during the investigation. They have proven that their approaches to solving these cases have led to complete embarrassment.

    It’s my and several other’s opinions that they do not now want to solve these cases because it will reveal the absolute worst work LE has ever performed. A severe lack of of communication or mis-communication between or agencies. So many pig headed, know-it-all,close minded good old boys who overlooked good leads and lacked out-of-the-box thinking. WHAT IS EVEN WORSE IS NOT CONTINUING TO TRY AND SOLVE THESE CASES DUE TO THEIR PERSONAL AND DEPARTMENTAL EMBARRASSMENTS. ABSOLUTE SHAME ON THEM!

    I say open all the files to the public without redaction and let us try to solve them.Who knows? There may be information that is redacted that will immediately solve the crimes. After 45 years YOUR APPROACH IS NOT WORKING!!!!

    If not get off your sorry asses and get down to Dorraville, Georgia and put the screws to John Hastings and ask him whether or not he knew the Briggs kid, Greg Greene, Chris Busch (again),Ted Lamborgine, Arch Sloan and Bloomfield Twp. Police Officer/pedophile from Cranbrook, the late Richard J. McNamee. You can start by contacting former hypnotized witness Doug Wilson in California and show him Hastings and McNamee’s pictures from that time.


    1. Absolutely, absolutely. I am trying to get geared up to write an appeal on this latest shameful FOIA response by the MSP. It will of course do no good; instead, it will be merely a record to establish a case for exactly what you propose. In January I wrote the new OCP, described all of the difficulty we have experienced with the MSP and the dirty actions of her predecessors. I specifically asked for help with regard to these ridiculous failures of the MSP to release information. Response? NOTHING. An observer said they don’t respond to me because they think I am a “crazy, raging, c**t.” I might be two of those things, but I am not crazy. And as much as this is a massive, PTSD-inducing and unnecessary pain-in-the-ass, I’m not going anywhere. There never has been a bridge to burn in this case–the MSP and the OCP built no bridges with the family members of victims or the living victims in this case. No bridge; no bridge-burning. But I will napalm the riverside if that’s what they prefer. And it seems that’s what they prefer. They may have been able to roll over the mortally wounded parents of these children, but this IS. NOT. DONE.

    2. Livoniaguy, you just hit it. How in the FUCK do they lose the DVD? Is it incompetence or are they protecting this lunatic? Which one is it? We already know the mother fucker knew Chris Busch. How about asking him if he was at Hunter Maple on March 16, 1977? How about asking him if he ran into a lady there at 4:30pm? How about asking him if he drove a LeMans? What is it going to take? Do I have to go there myself and make him talk? By God there’s no question I could. Much much more demanding than our proudest MSP.

      1. They didn’t lose it, they ditched it. Garry Gray and Dave Robertson were cut from the same cloth as the original MSP task force members. Hastings gets too close to Busch and his daddy and his daddy’s pals, and the nasty business that was afoot in Birmingham, Bloomfield, Cass Lake, etc. That’s why the 1992 investigation of Hastings got shut down, that’s why when these dogs realized the Georgia polygraph info was not totally redacted and that they had lied to Cory Williams about Hastings “passing,” they had to do the only thing they really do well: Cover their tracks. They want to argue it’s an open case. More like a sieve.

        1. They could have buried this just due to the Helen Dagner crow they would have to eat. Imagine how many calls they and all the other government agencies have received thru the years over Helen where they stated she is a nut on the internet and there is nothing to her story.

    3. Great post livoniaguy! If the MSP can’t do it, maybe a crew should go down to Georgia and ask questions. Maybe JH can help fill in the blanks that MSP took out. I would be very curious what Doug Wilson has to say as well. Someone knows something that could crack this case wide open but no one in authority is looking for it. Need someone with connections that can make something happen. Children of the Snow – Part 2 OCCK – Don’t Ask Questions!

      1. I think you are about right. Get a posse to head to Georgia and and get a Limo ride from the anti social reject. This case can be opened wide with intense interrogation on JH. He has some answers . I personally feel he knows, and he was involved to the highest degree. Doug Wilson needs to be brought back out and shown multiple photos of John Boy. What about the other two witnesses at Hunter Maple that evening? This pussy fitting around is way over done. It’s time for intense things to get done.

  4. For the sake of discussion.

    Does anyone know exactly what type of police work did McNamee do around the OCCK events? He was the first one reported at Busch residence the day after his murder. Seems like there is plenty of mystery just around that alone. Was he involved with homicide cases or just a mere coincidence? I guess because he was a neighbor maybe there is a possibility he was the first called upon the scene just due to that. If he was later busted for pedophile he must have a interesting history for someone to chase down if there ever was anyone investigating this case anymore. I would be real curious what his background and his real connections really were.

  5. Episode 9 at around 19:25 describes the possibility of Greene being out on bond before getting life sentence. Suggestions basically from cops memories I guess. Then he claims someone has a record of Greene being out on bond. Did I miss it in Marney or Appleman’s book? Let’s see this record. Where is it?

  6. Listen to it a few more times. Sounds kind of wishy washy to what are the facts. He first states that he’s read many places that Greene was out on bond. I could care less. Obvious as the authors want that OCCK sketch to match Greene to rap up the case and sell books. He states some records indicate Greene was in jail. Then he states different cops have notes claiming he was out on bond at the time. But then he questions if the notes are even accurate so Greene must have been out on bond. But one of them has him out on bond on record. Well let’s see this record. I say, ‘go bite it’. If there is no proof then it’s wishful thinking which is very likely the case. Have to further ask if it’s even reasonable to believe that someone is out on bond when they were given a life sentence like this? Sounds kind of far fetch doesn’t it? It’s understood that Busch got the breaks because of money and dad’s power. Even the records sure hint to that. But how does this work for Greene? Does that require big bucks from someone to do this? Something sure does not add up here. Maybe someone can explain.

    1. Greene was in jail during Timmys abduction. He didn’t have the means to get $75,000 bail. I agree dumb asses want it to be him to close the case. What party doint people get that the composites were John Hastings . For one the witnesses said that the suspect was clean cut . Greene was a dirt ball. Hastings fit the Bill . Quit being dumb people

      1. I don’t want to say their dumb, let’s just say they were fooled. It’s only natural to want things to fit. All the other things pertaining to Greene are probably very accurate and true. His history of torturing children, strangling victims, the whole pedophile scene, Busch’ side kick, confessing to OCCK in prison, etc. Even admitting to being the OCCK when him and Busch were brought in for questioning (Although there is something very odd about that!). However when things don’t line up, they simply don’t line up. Records indicate he was in jail during Tim’s abduction. If he was out on bond where are the records for that and more importantly how in the hell was this done? With Busch the paper trail seems obvious once it was unburied. Busch got cleared thru manipulation. However, Greene was out for some days before life sentence term? How can that be? The OCCK sketch matching Greene is really reaching for the stars. The widows peak hairline is hard to ignore on Greene. Where is it in the sketches? Having his hair parted that much on the side depicted in the sketches would be impossible for him to have in place and for only one time of his entire life. It just don’t add up but they want it to fit so badly.

      2. Inquisitor, this is an adult forum, go bite it, really what are you, 13? Anonymous, calling others dumb a#%*€ when you cannot even spell part or don’t, that’s rich. Greene was out in March of ‘77 and was not sentenced until June or July of ‘77. Yes, you missed it in Appleman’s book. There are skillful investigators with integrity who verified this info. Lourn Doan of Southfield PD. Garry Gray, investigator without skill or integrity.
        The widows peek is a moot point but McNamee’s bald head is not. What’s this stick up your craw over JH really about?

        1. Ok, wow Someone. Enough. This isn’t Topix. You want my opinion? It is much more likely than not that Greene, known to have 45 CSC charges he served time for in California, and suspected of molesting multiple boys in Flint from a baseball team that monster helped coach, was never released into society after his arrest on January 25, 1977. No one has asked Doan, who is still alive and I agree was a decent and hardworking cop, what his notes meant. Authors interpreted notes by Doan and a Flint PD employee, they did NOT ask Doan if he knew if Greene was released on bail. And why would he? Doan worked for Southfield, not Flint. And while it may have been customary in some cases for a judge to perhaps reduce the bond by some percentage, any reduction would have still been an amount that no one in Greene’s life would have been able to come up with. And I do not believe for one minute any judge or even the lamest PD/jail employee would have released a man with Greene’s record under any circumstances. Doan was skillful and had integrity. So much so that he, and more importantly, Flint Detective Tom Waldron, would have NEVER let a motherfucker like Greene back on the streets. He was sentenced to LIFE. These types generally don’t generally get to walk around free in the months between arrest and trial, unless they are in Oakland County.

          I try to check my spelling when I call out others. Seems to me that it’s “widow’s peak.”
          For what it’s worth, what sticks in my craw about Hastings is that 1. He does match that composite drawing; 2. A tip was called in on him in 1977 after my brother was abducted and in 1992 he was given a polygraph on my brother’s murder (of course he “passed”), 3. He lived right by Chris Busch, 4. He has been identified by a credible source as a “child hunter” (not a pedophile) for the pedophile rings operating in and around Oakland County, 5. He FAILED a polygraph in Georgia 12 years ago concerning the murders of Mark, Jill and Kristine and the polygrapher reported that at a minimum FOR SURE Hastings had knowledge about these crimes and knew Chris Busch, 6. He is alive and no one ever interviewed this freak after the Georgia polygrapher called the MSP with his conclusions (offering to hold Hastings until Michigan could get a warrant) and the MSP deep-sixed the polygraph info. He sticks in my craw because no one pushed this freak or his family because it would have ultimately pointed directly to Chris Busch and his daddy and the pedophile ring operating in Oakland County. And if that doesn’t agitate you, nothing will.

          So maybe it is more helpful to offer an observation without ad hominem attacks.

          1. This information should be splatted all over our news networks tomorrow. There sure was about suspects with far less evidence than this freak. Hastings has been brushed off. It’s time , he’s under a microscope

        2. Widow’s peak is NOT a moot point! It is very much a key identity in people. Go ask someone that does hair if someone with a very pronounce widow’s peak (like Greene) with very long bangs like in the sketches, can have hair parted on the side as much as the OCCK sketches shows. Because there are so many that fail to see this shows the lack of detective work on this case. Dark eyebrows is just not enough to identify someone. Sorry.

          As far as McNamee. I could be all wrong. Does anyone out there know when his pics were taken? Mainly his bald head and how many years after 1977 was it. Maybe we can do some math and figure this thing out. JH or no JH, let’s try to work with some facts on this case. The little bit of facts that are known to exist.

          1. Are you reading what she’s saying or just having issues comprehending what she said? Well let me reiterate. Greene didn’t have the money to get bail. Everyone in his circle was dirt ass poor. Now this part pay close attention.

            Greene was a dirt ball, grease monkey. The witness said “ the suspect had long , matted dark hair. He was wearing a brown sports jacket. That’s not Greene. Grease monkeys don’t wear sports jackets. Hastings however, does wear sports jackets .

            I hope this will help

            1. The one witness who gave a description said “swarthy”, JH was fair skinned. Also, Joe Kreese said in a news conference that the suspect was wearing a “rust color sport coat” and “husky build” In one of Chris Bush’s mug shots he has a sport coat on, too bad there is not a colorized shot. Again, with the pay close attention, you do not know as much about this case as you think you do and why the anger because people don’t agree with you. We all want JUSTICE but we also want the right perp to be charged.
              There is so many sick pedophiles out and and about at that time that it could turn out to be none of these guys. I think the children were “blitzed” and forced into the cars, I don’t think they went willingly, it would take a very few seconds with a tag team of Monsters to get this done swiftly.
              I’m out after this post. I DON”T THINK JH is the OCCCK, I do think GG and CB were involved. I think the drop offs were just happenstance because a few blocks north, a few blocks south, you are in a different jurisdiction on the same road.

              1. You are wrong! The witness said athletically built. 5”10 and weighed between 160-170 pounds. Chris Busch was a fat cow. Chris Busch had a full beard .

                By all means plzz be out because you don’t know what the hell you are talking about. Athletically built in the 70’s means twig skinny.

                1. QUOTE – By all means plzz be out because you don’t know what the hell you are talking about. Athletically built in the 70’s means twig skinny. UNQUOTE

                  I had no idea what she/he was getting at on that one. I guess the right coat but the wrong guy (Wrong build anyway). If Busch was actually at the pharmacy that day, it would stand out like a grey hound bus and would have been easily remembered and described as such.

                  CrimeBuffy has had some very valuable input on pedophiles in the past and I will miss her/him posts. The crust of the problem is that people will not accept anything but CB & GG involvement regardless of the facts. Rather the real fact is they are completely obsessed with it as that. Even regardless of Cathy’s recent post although I find that very shocking but just proves the point even further.

                  Two authors and documentaries have painted that GG is the suspect in the sketches and that is all there is to it. They will not accept that maybe someone like JH may have helped CB. MSP mainly Gary Gray was sure to bury anything of that 12 years ago.

                  It is simply pointless to continue to argue about this. People believe what they want to believe and never mind the facts as those just get in the way of things anyway.

                2. I’m not wrong, watch Winter’s Fear and you will see for yourself what JK said.
                  Oh that’s right, those who investigated this case, the authors who did tons of research and those interested in this case who don’t agree with you are all wrong.

              2. QUOTE – The one witness who gave a description said “swarthy”, JH was fair skinned. -UNQUOTE

                Not exactly true. Many that have known JH and seen his color photos on FB claim he had an unusual complexion. Described as similar to olive complexion by some.

                No matter how many pedophiles there are, it doesn’t change the details in the OCCK sketches including Doug Wilson hypnosis.

  7. I had an odd experience awhile back, when I was looking through some of the data on that excellent OCCK timeline. I had never read the Bowman letter before, and as I was reading through it, I became aware of my internal dialogue critiquing what Bowman was saying as I went along. I realized, that I was comparing what he was saying, against sets of ‘accepted truths’ about the same subjects/ events/ persons. Assumptions about these things that seem common to most folk who discuss OCCK online, perhaps as far back as Topix days, and my own personal fixated assumptions as well. And when Bowman said something contradictory to these ‘truths’, I was muttering internally; “no, no, that’s not correct”, or “that’s not how it happened”, or “he’s just saying this, about him, to downplay his own involvement, but we know better”.

    And I felt annoyed with myself! This guy had been a victim after all, whatever may have subsequently happened in his life…I should at least TRY to hear what he’s saying with my internal auto-edit off. So I did my ‘living in the present moment’ relaxation exercises, and told myself that when I read it over this time I would hear his voice in my head, hear him reading the words, and concentrate on listening to him – rather than myself.
    And it actually worked! I listen to Bowman, and I heard him express – at times – a very different perspective on some people in this case, his experience of them, their relationships, etc., than how I was accustomed to ‘seeing’ all of this. I went through it again, and wrote down everything that struck me was a different perspective.

    Then, still high on the mood, I went through a bunch of other statements; by victims, perps, suspected perps, investigators, and others. And sure enough, in some cases I ‘heard’ them say things that I wasn’t conscious of ‘hearing’ before, because I already ‘knew’ the ‘truth’ – my assumptions – so I had been critiquing, editing over & ignoring some of what was said.
    I ended up with a fresh perspective on some OCCK-related matters. I can’t say it’s a “better” one, but it is different from what I was used to habitually thinking about them.

    For example; I heard victims of Busch & Greene, their family-associates, some suspected co-perps, and both men themselves, say that Busch & Greene were as much RIVALS as they were partners – in their crimes – maybe even more so.
    Yes, it is well documented that they molested & abused the Busch nephews and their friends together, as well as separately. Yes, it seems documented that they “traded” other victims with each other, that they had first ‘cultivated’ independently. It is certainly possible, that they took pictures or made films of victims, together, although the documentation is scant for that.

    But both men also had a “pervert life” independent of the other. Some boys abused by Greene were never abuse by Busch. Some boys abused by Busch were never abused by Greene. The statement by an investigator, that boy victims were “passed around” between Greene, Busch and Bennet also states he thought Bennet was “closer” to Busch & Greene than the fourth man; Hiram Becker – whom he described as primarily ‘running’ in a different circle of perps.
    But the Flint PD police reports on Bennet’s arrest on multiple child molestation charges apparently don’t mention Busch-Greene, nor were they mentioned in ANY of the Flint paperwork.
    No reports collaborated that Bennet knew Busch or Greene.
    Then I clearly heard Bennet say, that he didn’t know either of the others, prior to his arrest, that he had a victim in common with Greene, but they didn’t abuse him together. I allowed myself to believe that, and could then see that the same could probably be said for many of the victims Busch & Greene had in common. They were NOT tag-team abusers, with all of their victims.

    Even with the Busch nephews and their friends, Greene is not always involved in the activities (so, not in the abuse either) Busch did with them. Busch said that he never brought Greene to the cabin, and I believe him, now. Not for the bogus reason Busch gave; “Greene was too violent”, but because the cabin was his Greene-free zone. Up there, the boys were “mine. my boys. not frickin Greene’s boys, they belong to ME”.
    I heard Brent Busch say, that Greene shouldn’t have had any victims outside Brent’s circles, because; “he didn’t need anyone else- he had ME!” Although he later denied saying that, its quite clear in the report. And that, is an expression of childhood crush. However disgusting that idea may be, yes an abused child can also have “crush” feelings for an abuser.
    If Brent ever expressed such feelings of affection for Greene, around Chris, that would have to cut to the bone. Chris was, after all, a parental figure in his life as well as a “sex partner”. And Greene gets the crush? Even if it were simply a matter of power & control over this group of boys, Busch would have to experience a RIVALRY with Greene, a vying to be/stay the #1 in their lives.

    Busch famously stated to police, that he & Greene shared a fantasy about kidnapping a boy and holding him for a sex slave – taking turns being the one “at home” with him. I had always assumed, this meant that if one or the other ever did have a boy under their captive control, the other would surely be involved as well.
    Now, I’m not so sure. Greene DID have boys trapped in his attic secret room, and I can’t find any statements by ANYONE, that Busch was ever up there or even in Greene’s home.
    Greene told police that Busch killed Mark Stebbins, but was that knowledge gained from experience – as a witness? Or gained from Busch BRAGGING to Greene that he had done in the poor lad. The two of them discussing their abduction-rape fantasies, and Busch deliberately stabs Greene in his lustful, perverted heart, by saying: “I’ve already done it all! I’m the guy who snatched Mark Stebbins!” knowing Greene longs to choke a boy not just unconscious. A BIG middle-finger, to his alleged friend – really his rival in perversion? Recently, I’ve even considered that Busch bragged to Greene about Stebbins, but was lying! and wasn’t really a participant in that after all!

  8. Running out of room with these discussions. If I understand it correctly. CrimeBuffy and another poster are bringing up something that has been missed. Evidently Joe Kreese from the original task force in a OCCK news conference used the words that the suspect is ‘husky’ and wearing a ‘sports coat (rust color)’. I’m assuming this was stated in the old Winter’s Fear radio show although I can’t find it off hand. Somewhere along the way there is a photo of Chris Busch wearing a sports coat from that time period but it’s a black and white photo. (Can’t determine the rust color)

    I think this might be suggesting that Chris Busch was the one standing in front of the Gremlin that night with Tim. This is a brand new interpretation of this as far as I know. Interesting observations just the same. I say believe whatever you want to believe. We’re all in this together. So many variations and interpretations of this crime. Just pretend that justice will be brought to all of them someday.

    1. Yes and here we are, 44 years later, discussing and arguing over composite drawings and car makes and models, which criminologist Dr. Michael Arntfield explains are the “death knell” of any investigation. And trying to make sense of cryptic cop notes that were clearly never followed up on.

      https://www.spreaker.com/user/jreubenappelman/episode6final. Just how old Brooksie would have wanted it, and the MSP likes it, too.

    2. I’d like to clarify what the Composites on the paperwork said” the suspect was between 5”10 and weighed between 160-170 lbs and was athletically built . Athletically built in the 70’s means skinny . The suspect was wearing a brown sports jacket and had long shaggy brown hair. Does this sound like fat ass Chris Busch? Or does it sound like John Hastings ?

      1. Same wording with the OCCK wanted poster. I guess depending on what suspect you have of choice there is a source somewhere to back it up. There has never been a crime in history as nuts as this.

        1. You want Greene in or out of jail during Tim’s abduction? Pick a source and interpretation that will work for your choice.

        2. It wasn’t Busch standing next to Tim King that night. If it was Busch. Doug Wilson would have said and quote” there was this greasy , morbid obese slug standing next to this kid. Chris Busch was 5”7 and weighed 340 lbs. the guy that was talking to Tim was a smooth operator. A styling and profiling wanna be kinda guy. A John Hastings type of guy. Not a poor Flint poor either. So many of you really don’t pay attention. When frustration sets in

          1. JN

            I’m with you on everything. Couldn’t agree more strongly than I do and I have my reasons.

            I also believe that the turning point of this entire OCCK case is sitting on a DVD from Georgia that MSP has either misplaced or buried on purpose. Knowing what I know of Gary Gray I bet the later.

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