Listen to Dr. Micheal Arntfield discuss the OCCK case with J. Reuben Appelman on Appelman’s podcast, You Know They Know:

Appelman is the author of The Kill Jar, Obsession, Descent, and a Hunt for Detroit’s Most Notorious Serial Killer. I discussed Dr. Arntfield’s observations on the OCCK case in a previous post.

Listen to what Dr. Arntfield has to say about this case, consider his credentials and expertise (see also,, and ask yourself how you can argue with what he posits. Unless you saw one of these kids while they were in captivity and have absolute direct knowledge, I don’t see how you can argue with this. I’m sure somebody without direct knowledge will try.

You need to hear this. Especially if you live in Oakland County.

43 Comments on “THIS.”

  1. Judi Coltman says:

    Yes. YES. Oakland County Prosecutors, I know you aren’t sleeping through this because you are too busy trying to keep the blinds down and how do you sleep anyway?

  2. Terry B says:

    Dr Arntfield described the Busch death scene as a “diorama.” I’d add to that the description “very strange”. Obviously Busch was a “loose end.” A very strange diorama also best describes the death scene of JonBenet Ramsey, which was apparently arranged as partial mimic of the Black Dahlia death scene. The easy way to know that both the Ramsey scene and Busch scene involved the same person, are by the numerous figurines found on the drawing of the Stebbins victim. Zodiac killer cross hair symbols are seen on the ear lobes. Inverted JT’s are on the face. Lots of evidence links these and other crime scenes. BTW, review the murder trial of Leo Max Frank for some insight into how long the press has been heavily controlled by the same fiends.

  3. Cschinks says:

    Eye-opening! You’re right, how could you argue with any of his points. Never heard the theory of HLB being involved in the ring. Just wow! Or a family member.The bro who calls the police before going to the house. WTF?! Always thought more narrow that CB, AG, AS, TL were the only players. Maybe they were the pawns. Dr. Arntfelds observations are quite solid in my opinion. Jesus, this case may never be solved. I wish AG DN would could listen to this. But then again, it would be shoved off to the MSP. Circle of never ending BS! Thanks for this link Cathy. My continued support and condolences to you and your family and the others too.

  4. jkaneh says:

    Two minutes into this I have a question. They said all the doors they tried were locked from the inside except the garage door that was open. All garages have a door from the garage to the outside. No mention of this or if it was open, shut and locked. That was the point of entry and exit for my stepson’s murderer. Is there a way to find out?



    • Judi Coltman says:

      Jessie- I understand what you are saying but can tell you that not all houses have a door from the garage to the outside. My house does not have a door other than the large garage doors and the door into the house.

      • crimebuffy says:

        What did the man look like who almost plowed into Polly at the Hunter Maple Pharmacy? Was it most likely CB? What type & color car did she see lurking around the park March 16th? Was she able to provide a license plate number?

        • Judi Coltman says:

          The man she described, both in Hunter Maple and as the man driving around the Poppleton Park loop, did not sound like Chris Busch. No, she was not able to supply a license number. This is from an email I wrote to Cathy in 2006:

          Around 4:00 p.m. it occurred to her [Polly] that with everyone being out of the house that night, it would be a good time to color her hair. She drove up to the HM Pharmacy, parked in back, and entered through the back door. If you remember, there was a narrow hallway you had to walk through before it opened up to the pharmacy area in the back. She was walking down the hall and bumped into a man in his late 20’s or early 30’s (she thought) and he seemed startled by the incident. He stood there for an extended period of time looking at her before she moved past. He had dark hair and she thought sideburns – but does not remember them being the big mutton chopped sideburns described in the composite sketch. . . .

          At one time I believe she mentioned he was wearing nicer pants (not jeans) and a jacket (not sure if it was a spring coat or a sport coat.)

          The car she saw circling by Poppleton Park and in front of her house was light colored and not a Gremlin and it was driven by the same man she bumped into at HM. I cannot say for certain if she ever identified the car as a sedan or coupe but she did say it was a bigger car and emphasized, not a Gremlin.

          She contacted police the next day but never heard from them.

          • Judi Coltman says:

            I should also add that she did eventually have a visit from police perhaps a week, maybe two, later, however; that was a door to door canvas and when she tried to tell them about the story above and that she phoned in a tip, they were not interested. Later it was learned that 30+ tips had been accidentally erased in the first few days of Tim’s disappearance. I am sure hers was among them.

  5. Walter says:

    You say

    “I discussed Dr. Arntfield’s observations on the OCCK case in a previous post.

    But that link is not public.

  6. jo ann says:

    I lived in the sloan family while this was going on, I was only 17, the detectives question me 5yrs ago, on a case that 40yrs ago, I think I know the 5 man.

    • cathybroad says:

      The time to speak up is now.

      • crimebuffy says:


        With everything we now know, can the MSP and their DNA results really be trusted? If any DNA matched CB or GG, would they really admit to it? After seeing the discrepancies in what Sgt Dave Robertson said about saliva being on the jacket of KM and Mt DNA matching DNA from the Bonneville Car once owned by Sloan and/or the son of a State Police trooper and then Garry Gray saying he doesn’t remember, well WTF….

    • Judi Coltman says:

      Jo Ann – please, PLEASE speak up now. Questioning 5 years ago went nowhere and if you remember more or even if you don’t – they need to be poked by relevant people.

    • OCCK SURVIVOR says:

      Please Jo ann!!!!!!!
      I am a survivor of one of the five that tried to kidnap me and another girl when we were walking home from school in Lake Orion Michigan please give me peace, please give the families peace, most importantly give Jill, Kiristine, Mark, and Timothy peace.

      I’ll tell you what I know they purposely kidnapped a child near a holiday, after they killed a child they waited a while then kidnapped another one, I am guessing they all worked nights as they only kidnapped during the day or early evening, I am guessing they involved someone younger than them to take care of the children while they worked, I am also guessing they worked somewhere with cars, as they did their dirty deeds in a variety of cars, they had a way to quickly paint cars as they painted the gremlin to green, after they tried to get me they got rid of that car as it could be positively identified.
      I hope you are now trusting me I know what I am talking about, I did not see Bush, or Green, or any of those I saw Sloan or a younger family member of Sloan that looks just like him.

      I believe my police record is not on file anymore, the cover up goes back all the way to the day I was almost kidnapped, I don’t know the exact date but by their pattern I am guessing it was around Easter.

      There are many people out there that have puzzle pieces, I am one, and you are the one that can fill in all the pieces to finally make the whole picture, please do not be afraid, please find the strength in your heart to put this case to rest, I can’t imagine how terrifying it must be to be you, but please tell all that you know, try to tell us on this blog first, I believe you are afraid to tell the police for some reason.

      Tell Cathy on a personal level what you know if you don’t feel comfortable telling all of us, she will give you her email and it will be just between you and her, I believe that you are just as much a victim to the OCCK clan as the children that were murdered, and children like myself that got away, please give yourself peace too.

  7. Charles LaLonde says:

    this is the best info from an expert i have seen in this case , but i think the other side is winning , as they drag this out forever , as they die they pass without being accountable , i must have missed some things i see reference to fox island customer list and references to some of those on it

  8. Charles LaLonde says:

    YES, Jo ANN speak up , everything you know ,

  9. Charles LaLonde says:

    the behavior of charles busch calling the police rather than going home to check on his brother is very suspicious , i know that sort of advoidance behavior , he didnt want to be there when they found his brother , he was avoiding the stress and awkward situation . and what multimillionair wants the cheap little plinking gun his son committed suicide with.

  10. Walter says:

    Has anybody ever tried a foia on the former FBI agent who flew out to fox island in 1975 with Shelden, Don Berlage?

    Who did he work with at the FBI?

  11. Anonymous says:

    He’s right. Herb was an insidious monster. Senior Men’s Club. Birmingham. Untouchables.

  12. Anonymous says:

    He’s right. Herb was an insidious monster. Senior Men’s Club. Birmingham. Untouchables.

  13. Jeremy says:

    Hi Cathy, is there a way to e-mail J.Ruben Appleman? Thank you, Jeremy

  14. Mac Parsons says:


    • Kay says:

      I was reading this again and a name caught my eye on page 1108. John Hastings.

    • Walter says:

      An interesting note about that link.

      The ‘miporn’ investigation looks like it was arranged by the FBI shortly after the Congressional hearings, but it looks like a cya project rather than investigation.

      One of the two FBI agents was arrested for shoplifting during the investigation, which points to the possibility they might not have been long term FBI agents, but simply hired for that project. That agent has other issues as well.

      More mysteriously supportive of that is the fact that several of the people they were targeting suspected them of being cops, but they solved those fears in an interesting way.

      “Rothstein had confirmed with Al Tapper now deceased of …some company…and that Tapper had dealt with them for a substantial period and not been arrested.”

      So the ‘FBI agents’ had been involved in local pornography for a while, probably quite a long time, before they were used for the national investigation.

      That FBI agent had actually been with the FBI for 18 years.

      At that time child sexual abuse was not considered as serious a crime by government types as today. There are a lot of files and stories that have come out about various federal agencies using children.
      “Several of the children who Cameron experimented on were sexually abused, in at least one case by several men. One of the children was filmed numerous times performing sexual acts with high-ranking federal government officials, in a scheme set up by Cameron and other MKULTRA researchers, to blackmail the officials to ensure further funding for the experiments.[28]”

      Very possible the two FBI agents were involved in another longrunning project and were used in a pinch because of the Congressional hearings.

    • Walter says:

      One more point that’s odd.

      There was a book written about Livingston, the ‘undercover FBI agent’ in that case called ‘Lost Undercover’. There are a lot of used copies listed online but no current page with reviews.

      In 2008 Jeffrey Epstein was convicted the first time. There were a lot of oddities in the FBI investigation. For example after the prosecution sputtered, Epstein’s butler offered Epstein’s black book to the victims. The FBI got word of that and charged him with extortion or something, a charge which appears contrived. The FBI jailed him, and after leaving jail the butler developed a very fast spreading rare cancer, mesothelioma. The day after he died some deadman switch mechanism was triggered and the black book was on the internet

      Back to 2008. The FBI is being criticized for some peculiarities involving Epstein.

      Late 2008 a book is written about an FBI agent called ‘Last Undercover’.

      One of many oddities is that if you search for the first book, with the actual name of the agent, a lot of the results are the second book.

      The second book, released right as the first Epstein publicity storm started, is by an FBI agent who spent years undercover but the mostly positive reviews complain that the book is mostly about a child sex group he infiltrated.

      “most of this book deals with the agent’s undercover work in NAMBLA, a group of male pedophiles.”


      “Terrible writing and shame on the FBI to allow this case to continue for so long. How could they let the author become President of this sick group?????”

      Who knows if that review is true, but the coincidental timing with Epstein, the almost identical names of the two books, etc, sure look weird.

      Most of the reviews are from when the book was first released, during the first Epstein case, 2008, but there appears to have been a second publicity push for the book in 2017 right before the second wave of criticism directed toward the FBI over Epstein.

      “I almost thought it was a scam to pay only 1 penny for a book but no it was awesome that it actually came thru! So im very happy with the service!”

      That’s an actual Amazon review for the book, as is the one that says the FBI agent became president of the group.

    • Walter says:

      One last comment. FBI agent Livingston’s partner in that child porn investigation also features prominently in some corruption investigations.,+Bruce+Ellavsky,+testified+that+the+FBI+dropped+the+case+because+the+extortion+stopped+and+Slinger+no+longer+wanted+to+go+forward.+Yet,+Ellavsky+couldn%E2%80%99t+explain+why+there&source=bl&ots=Se4akGhhXl&sig=ACfU3U0AvXfJEb4VTKD0wsNRxbrn3TIeZg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiPzbequ_DlAhVIjp4KHSBhCRsQ6AEwAHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Newton%E2%80%99s%20supervisor%2C%20Bruce%20Ellavsky%2C%20testified%20that%20the%20FBI%20dropped%20the%20case%20because%20the%20extortion%20stopped%20and%20Slinger%20no%20longer%20wanted%20to%20go%20forward.%20Yet%2C%20Ellavsky%20couldn%E2%80%99t%20explain%20why%20there&f=false

      “Yet, Ellavsky couldn’t explain why there were no FBI reports on the incident.”

      It seems beyond odd that an FBI agent involved in a questionable investigation of porn in Miami was also part of the famous FBI corruption in Boston with Whitey Bulger. Researching the Bulger case it’s pretty clear that only a few of the crooked FBI agents were arrested. There were continued oddities involving FBI agents around that corrupt network for years.

      Notice the first link has a legal document about peter j limone who spent decades in jail after he was set up by crooked FBI agents.

  15. Mac Parsons says:

    I’m 2/3rds of the way through this podcast and I gotta say
    there are two takeaways right off the bat, in alliance with
    similar sentiment:

    1. Christopher Busch was likely murdered by another Busch; and

    2. The investigation was killed for financial reasons. Protection
    of certain individuals? Highly suspect as well.

    Dunno what party was in control back then, but that’s my guess.

Leave a Reply