“This could be the result of the shittiest police work ever.”

This comment from a reader is powerful and makes some very good points. Rather than having it buried in the comment section, I am reposting it here:

What a sloppy investigation. I am embarrassed to have grown up in Michigan. I wonder if they have all the secretary of state records for all the Leman’s owners during that year. If they do it would be nice to see if they can run the last three plate numbers 222. Doug Wilson repeated multiple times how confident he was about the last three numbers of the license plate. I doubt you would even the car’s color. There can not be very many leman’s owners with a license plate ending in 222 from that year. The State of Michigan needs to e-file all government documents. This way old documentation can be searched in a keyword/advanced search database. Not just information from criminal investigations. The government just lets all the old documentation sit in filing cabinets to collect dust. IMO it is one of the worst parts of this investigation. There is so much old fashion detective work in this case when it needs to be digital. Just to pull a hand full of files must take hours. This is completely unacceptable. I have a feeling this was never a cover up. This could be the result of the shittiest police work ever and prosecutors funneling money for a massive investigation. I would not be surprised if the state police have files they won’t let your family go through with the excuse that they are in an active investigation that already that proves who the killer is. They just need to hand over the damn files already. If they had such strong evidence that was too risky to release to your family than why did they relaunch the task force after Richard Lawson incriminating Ted Lamborgine and after Patrick Coffey mentioned his conversation with Larry Wasser about admitting to polygraph testing Christopher Bush. They don’t even know what evidence they have. Their only tool right now is taking tips and giving polygraphs. Your family and the media has done better with this investigation they have. I bet these detectives only work this case part time. Which is probably less than 5 hours a week at best. Don’t stop complaining. This is bullshit.

When I look at the articles describing all the grant money and other funds that went toward this investigation over the years, it makes me crazy. When Garry Gray was working on this case from 2005 on, he was quoted somewhere in the press as saying they got funds to digitize the files in this case. They never did it. I have been told by a number of sources that the “war room” and evidence storage area for this case are shit shows. Isn’t there some younger person at the MSP who has not been tainted by the culture there who has a conscience? How about someone still living who worked for Brooks Patterson from 1976-1980 who knows what happened to this investigation and has a conscience? Dick Thompson, we know we can count you out.

The state police need to account for all of these funds and how/if they were put to use in the OCCK case. Then they, and the OC prosecutors office, need to atone for their mis and malfeasance in this case. Other agencies are actually working on behalf of children, not just saying they do. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-marshals-find-39-missing-children-georgia/; https://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/story/news/2020/08/27/u-s-marshals-find-25-missing-kids-including-one-mansfield/5647820002/; https://nbc25news.com/news/local/genesee-county-sheriff-has-arrested-17-alleged-child-sex-predators-since-march. In the MSP’s and the OCP’s failures in this case and their resultant doubling-down and refusal to make anything right here, they continually miss the larger picture. Here is the larger picture, in case those charged with protecting the most vulnerable in society don’t get it: 1. What happened to Mark, Jill, Kristine and Tim (and no doubt other victims); 2. Living abuse victims; 3. The damage done here to society at large.

There needs to be an inquiry into this investigation as was done in the Yorkshire Ripper case in the UK. This case was the longest running serial killer case in the UK. These cases were atypical because

the British Parliament conducted a major review critical of the investigative procedures; a procedure unprecedented in U.S. criminal investigations. The product of the review was the discovery of a multitude of investigative errors and the establishment of the HOLMES system, a central repository of case information in major cases. That kind of database, along with the ability of investigators to draw on the data contained therein, goes a long way to solve many of the information disconnects that plague interagency task force investigations, particularly the cases involving serial offenders such as killers and sex offenders.

The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations, The Grisly Business Unit, Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes (Academic Press 2003), p. XV.

When a new prosecutor is sworn in for Oakland County (and I hope it is Karen McDonald) and hopefully a new OC sheriff, a game plan has to be implemented to stop this drain on the taxpayers and to answer to the public for what has happened here and how officials plan to make sure it never happens again.

I don’t care who killed John McKinney or Chris Busch and no one else appears to, either. Focus on the failures of this task force and the culture that not only permitted it but encouraged it. Answer and atone.


36 Comments on ““This could be the result of the shittiest police work ever.””

  1. Cory says:

    I spent countless hours trying to corroborate Doug Wilson’s information. Unfortunately the Michigan Secretary of State only kept records of cars & license plates back 10 years when they computerized their system.
    So I then went thru all the vehicles in the 18,000 tips looking for a 222 plate, None!
    I think Doug Wilson got the plate wrong & why the hell didn’t he jot it down if he was that consumed with the guy in the Lemans!!? He makes a jingle so he won’t forget the letters, yet he doesn’t write it down as soon as possible!!!! Really??
    Thinking he may have, I tried many other combinations like 232,522,255 252, nothing
    I also spent days pulling and reading original Tips connected to Pontiac Lemans or Tempests hoping to catch a break. Another dead end.

    More work has been done on the case in the last 15 years than the above writer could ever imagine.

    • cathybroad says:

      Yes, Cory, when I go crazy I picture Robert Robertson, Joe Krease, L. Brooks Patterson and Richard Thompson, and later Garry Gray, Dave Robertson, Jessica Cooper and Sean Callaghan. They would have done NOTHING if you had not been involved.

      Wilson explains in his written statement that he didn’t even really want to come forward because he didn’t think he had anything to add, doesn’t want to get involved. Not exactly admirable. But he does undergo the hypnosis and the lengthy interview. What sticks out to me is that an older man was in a car watching intently and probably a part of the abduction plan, if only as a look out. More importantly, why was the sketch of the older man never made public? In June of 1977 that information could have made a difference. So much disorganization and so much concern about the appearance of having a serial killer loose in Oakland County rather than solving the crime. That’s on the original task force and it doesn’t matter if no case like this had ever been seen before. They didn’t step up, they went sideways. And why is it that someone from Wayne County has to do all the heavy lifting and the MSP just goes along for the ride, or worse, slows down the process?

      The original task force was headed by an inexperienced man with an outsized ego, and the prosecutor at the time cared only about his reputation and keeping his job. The predictable result–decades of keeping a lid on this before 2005, was entirely shitty and is indefensible.

      • cathybroad says:

        And how about the sketch of the younger man??

        • cathybroad says:

          And let’s not forget MSP polygrapher Ralph Cabot and Oakland County medical examiner Sillery, also players who did a totally shitty job back in the day making solving the case much more difficult.

          • Paul Jolliffe says:

            Cathy,

            I wrote years ago that this case was NOT investigated back in the 1970’s. This was NOT a “totally shitty job” – no this was deliberate. The “solution” (“well, he got away, and we just don’t know who dunnit”) was intentional and calculated.

            (As a side note, I believe that even the publication of the 1980 pseudonymous book, “Michael Parrott’s” “The Oakland County Child Killer” was an attempt to both reveal and conceal at the same time. If Bruce Danto was indeed the author, then he was part of a cover up.)

            Those with the authority to direct the investigation made sure that no real leads would be developed and that the focus would remain on dead ends (the AMC Blue Gremlin is still what people remember about the case to this day!)

            Why?

            To prevent any embarrassing disclosures that would reflect badly on law enforcement, particularly those agencies, local, state and federal who had any connection to anyone who was a part of the OCCK ring.

            In short, if any agency had any informant who was in any way connected to the murders of little kids, then those agencies would move heaven and earth – forever! – to prevent that information from ever becoming public.

            • cathybroad says:

              Yes. The information provided by Doug Wilson in June of 1977 was withheld from the public. The sketches of the two men, the description of the car the older man was sitting in were never made public. So three months after my brother’s murder, they are already shutting it down. That was 15 months before McKinney’s murder and 17 months before Busch’s murder.

              The use of confidential informants in Detroit and the suburbs back then was unconscionable in practice. In cases of pedophelia and child porn, child victims were completely disposable. Yeah, if the FBI realized their CI was a serial killer of children, that would close the door and lock it forever. One of my brothers has been saying this for over 15 years.

              The FBI’s behavior in this case has always been suspicious. Interesting observation about the 1980 book–revealing and concealing. Reading it really felt weird–more disturbing in some ways than any of the other books on this subject. It was also published in French.

              If we ever find out about who covered this up and why, the number of people who were a part of it or in on it, will be shocking.

    • Benjamin smith says:

      Well Cory I don’t think that the writer was necessarily suggesting your work. As for government documentation in all these state agency’s like secretary of state or cold case files still being in folders in dusty file cabinets or being destroyed is a bit ridiculous. I bet having that information uploaded into a State data base could help solve so many cold cases. I do think the writer is flawed on 1 thing and I think you are to Cory. Did anyone think at any time the information your searching for might not be in a mountain of tips and pedophile profiles? Also what good is a lot of these tips if you guys can’t look up the documentation that would prove a suspect was involved

    • crimebuffy says:

      Cory, without your pavement pounding, this case would still be no where. From a CER and fellow Court worker, KUDOS to you!!!! You put Lawson and Lamborgine away and that is worth a lot. God’s speed to you!

  2. maggiep1958 says:

    New prosecutor and new Attorney general can work on it, if they choose. Atlanta mayor is taking a fresh look at the Atlanta child killer case, based on new technology.

  3. OCCK Survivor says:

    It is so sad this has been botched up ever since my attempted kidnapping, and by the way Det. Street did not tell me if they found the statement I made in 1977 about the kidnappers description, they would have to go all the way back and figure out the missing puzzle pieces since the murder and kidnapping of the four children Timothy, Jill, Kristine, and Mark, then our attempted kidnapping, then no attempted kidnapping after mine, so I am guessing they did not properly deal with our statements as well, I bet it never was reported, as it surely has never been mentioned in any documentary that there was an attempted kidnapping shortly after Timothy King was murdered. Soo we can assume they probably burned it so no one could ever see it which would have probably led them into the direction of Gunnels, Sloan, Bush, and whoever else.

    I am so positive that the time frame and what car it was, and all of it means something, still believing I lived through this to help this case get solved, now what I can do to help that I don’t know, I am still trying won’t give up just need a break from it sometimes.

    I’m on the rampage now so, if anyone knows what I can do to help let me know.

    Thanks to Cathy and all the others that are seeking justice for the children who died from the hands of the OCCK clan.😆

  4. Benjamin smith says:

    Ok Cathy take this with a grain of salt but here is my mothers story.
    Someone had told my mother the police said they had footage of my mother, her 2 friends, and her brother as they were walking in 711 as Kristine was leaving. It may also be possible that she may have just been at the 711 on the same day. I am not sure. Personally I am not sure how accurate this is due to my mothers memory fading over the years. My mother is about to be 59 years old. Smh she’s an old lady lol. My mother lived on Buckingham in Berkley. Which is just around the block from Kristine. Supposedly some of the neighbors had thought a man named Mr Patchins or maybe Patchens may have been involved because it was later revealed he was a pedophile. Some of the local children came forward after some of his victims said that he had been molesting and raping them for sometime. I am pretty sure this one is true because I remember her mentioning this guy to me and my siblings when we were younger. He also lived on Buckingham in Berkley. I think she said sometime in 1977 the police raided his house and found massive amounts of child porn. She said they never convicted him because he had emphysema and was close to death. He was known to Lure kids by gifts, smiles, parties, and candy to his home. Over the years his home was the hangout spot for children in the area. My mother told me he was experienced with photography and was known to take professional quality photos of children at the parties he had at his house of neighborhood children. She does not remember him taking any nude photos at these parties. However the raids done to his house may prove otherwise. At some point in time my mother told me he was put in a hospital possibly because of his medical condition and was never released (I am guessing he died do to his medical condition). She is not sure what Mr Patchins/Patchens first name is. all I know is he lived on the same street as my mother and that the street name was Buckingham in Berkley Michigan. I doubt he was the killer. Though he may have been in the same circle of sick fucks. Especially if he was experienced with photography. If what my mother says is true than it is obvious the task force would have had a file on this man. idk maybe its nothing. who knows.

    I don’t want to get your hopes or give you false information. As I mentioned take this with a grain of salt. I would say finding out if this information is completely true would be interesting.

    • cathybroad says:

      Security camera footage of Kristine should have been broadcast on the news, not held back by police. If time-stamped, this would have given police a much more precise time window. Police should have located and interviewed your everyone on that video footage from that afternoon. But I’m sure they did not. Just like police never spoke with the boys Tim was playing with earlier in the afternoon on March 16. A reporter named their names in an article but police never talked with them. Can you imagine what they could have provided? Like what cars did you see, was anyone watching you, did anyone approach you?

      It is worth a check to see if there are any news reports about the arrest of this Patchins/Patchens man in Berkley. He probably did get called in to the task force. Any idea of his age? The child porn should have been carefully examined to see if it included the OCCK victims or kids from his neighborhood that could have been identified. I bet money there is no mention of the raid or his arrest in the news. That he was not taken to trial in OC–no surprise there.

  5. markmorton88 says:

    I hope for the sake of Cathy, her father, her brothers and all the other family members involved that this monster is finally uncovered. I don’t care who it turns out to be as long as the answer is known to us all. I’m happy to be off base in my take on this tragedy.

    And knowing that Cory reads this blog, I’d be interested in his thoughts regarding my amateur analysis.

    I’ve written this on this blog before but I don’t think this killer is any of the often mentioned suspects. As horrible as those people are/were pedophiles are rarely serial killers. And they don’t tend to abuse both sexes. They are sexual deviants for sure but usually not sadistic killers.

    This killer is a lone wolf. It’s very doubtful that a ring of pedophiles would all keep their mouths shut this long. They would’ve dropped a dime to save their own skin.

    This guy worked alone and he’s a sadistic killer. Sexual assault is probably less a motive than having these kids under his complete control which is what he gets off on.

    I’d bet this guy is a loner, quiet and unassuming. And he lived very very close to the Stebbins. Almost certainly in his late 20s in 1977. He felt very comfortable in the Stebbins neighborhood which is why he started there. As his confidence grew he expanded his area.

    And he’s no dummy. He knew that Tim had to be dropped farther away due to the police presence. But he lived by Mark. For sure.

    I know that Cory and those that were diligent looked for connections between the kids – did they all possibly know this person. That would explain the seemingly low,key abductions. No witnesses to kids being dragged kicking and screaming. This is the most perplexing element of this case. My guess is this guy looked harmless and used ploys like Bundy (injury, need your help, etc) and gained trust.

    Look for Lemans owners within 2 miles of the Stebbins home.

    It’s not unheard of for these killers to stop. DeAngelo did. Rader did.

    This guys is probably very very much like Bundy or Wayne Williams in terms of his ability to easily gain trust and not make a scene.

    • OCCK Survivor says:

      Hey, I really don’t believe we can have all these different descriptions of men possible suspects if there was only one man, I know my kidnapper did not look anything like the dark hair guy and yet I really was almost kidnapped by a blonde, so I wanted to let you know there is someone alive who knows what one of the kidnappers looks like.

  6. cathybroad says:

    From Livonia Guy (and my apologies to those of you who have difficulty posting here):

    Its odd that in the link below which Cathy provided there is a note of Dick McNamee as a Bloomfield Village fireman and the mention of S.Overhill and Morning Terrace.Um, that is exactly where Chris Busch lived (Page 20).

    Click to access mcnamee-file-5.pdf

    Also, Cory Williams pretty much dismissed John Hastings as a suspect due to Helen Dagner’s lying about Hastings having tapes of the kids while in captivity (according to Keenan’s book).IMO, it doesn’t mean that Helen’s basic information is bad. Helen told me that John Hastings Sr, was a Volunteer member of the Village Fire Dept. on weekends. In fact,the Hastings would often bring out the fire truck in the neighborhood for kids to see it.I think the Fire Dept was on Bradway a street to the left of Tuckahoe,the Hastings residence.

    While Marney only had two pages on Helen and John in her book,a few thoughts:

    1) Alpena Witness is “the smoking gun”. LE bough Hastings explanation that he was only having “fun” with Helen to get free food??? Come on. Who uses the worst crime in Michigan history as a joke and lies about it daily for 9 months? Alpena Witness (who I now know) is very credible and heard John speaking to Helen that December 26th,1991 morning in the Alpena Big Boy about the killings and how adamant John wast hat he was the killer.He also recalled the maps that John had drawn in detail. Was Helen a kook? Yes,in a lot of ways. Doesn’t mean all of her information is bad.If the day comes that Hastings has played apart int his crime all LE involved in these crimes will have major egg on their faces and be called”totally incompetent”.

    2) When John had his first Lie Detector test in Atlanta the Georgia police said it was inclusive and that John called them the next day and wanted to change one of his answers?Are you kidding me?! ? Who does that except a guilty person!

    3) Both Busch and Hastings were drinking buddies at the Hartford Lanes in Berkely across the street from the 7-11 where Kristine was abducted. Could Officer Dick McNamee be the police officer the kid witness saw?

    4) In J. Reuben’ Appelman’s book,the “Kill Jar”,on Page 40, he mentions “a twenty something man,named John,dark haired and thin,in attendance at his mother’s work party,had been mingling with guests before leaving hastily. Some say he left tog o after the Stebbins boy.”.

    5) John brought a book about serial killers to his second lie detector test with Gary Gray and Corey Williams. Who does that? IMO,Hastings was alphabet / serial killer:

    H -Hunter-Maple Pharmacy (where Tim was abducted)
    A – American Legion Hall (where Mark was abducted)
    S – Seven Eleven-(where Kristine was abducted)
    T – Tiny Tim Hobby Shop(where Jill may have been abducted. It’s the last place she was seen)
    I – I-75 (where Jill was dropped off near the Troy Police Dept.)
    N- New Orleans Mall(where Mark’s body was dropped)
    G- Gill Road(where Tim’s body was dropped)
    S – Dr Bruce Danto (Psychiatrist) on his radio show called the OCCK a “squirrel” of a person hoping that the killer(s) would drop Kristine’s body off on Squirrel Rd in Bloomfield Hills.The killers saw right thru that supposed enticement and said here you go Bruce and dropped her off on Bruce Lane in Franklin. I wonder whether office Dick McAnee knew about the police stake out ahead of time).

    I mean what are the odds that this is a coincidence? Also, what are the odds that Hastings and Busch lives 1000 ft from each other as the crow flies

    6)The suspect had piercing blue eyes according the colored police sketch shown in this link at

    The three suspects that had blue eyes are Busch,Sloan and Hastings. Gregory Greene had brown eyes. Hastings looked like a couple of other sketches, as well including the one where every thinks the drawing looks like Greene.

    7) Can LE find the letter to DR. Danto in its evidence storage. Carefully,get the stamp off that letter and test it for DNA.

    8) Get Ce Ce Moore,the Genetic Detective on the case,ASAP.

    (9) Go to Atlanta area and interview John again. He lied time after time during the 90’s interviews. Instead of accusing Helen as a liar what about John? I cannot believe Gray and Williams asked him only four questions and give them to him the day before so he’d be ready for the test. Also, lie detector tests are not permitted in court for a reason. The Green River killer and Ted Bundy both passed lie detector tests at some point. Most diabolical and psycho killers can pass.

    10) Review all evidence for DNA. There are new methods now to collect DNA Start from the beginning on the evidence.

    That’s enough thoughts for tonight. John certainly fooled the police and other LE so he can certainly fool a lie detector test especially if softball questions are asked.

    • Benjamin smith says:

      Not tryin to bug ya but I just want to make sure you saw my post about my mother. Aslo I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but i couldn’t help but notice that in the WDIV docu-series episode 2 @31:35-31:42 the reporter was standing outside the 711 where there was what looks to be a dark (1968-1972) blue Pontiac LeMans with a hitch and and what looks like a bent bumper or busted tail light on the driver side (screenshot the image and zoom in) im the 711 parking lot. It is also hard to tell whether the plate is dirty, yellow, or missing. It looks like it may also have a dent in the passenger side door. I compared the screen shot to Pontiac LeMans which seems to be very similar to the design of a 1969 Pontiac LeMans rear end

      Remember the footage is at 31:35-31:42👇

      • cathybroad says:

        Got it. Hands full tonight. Will check carefully tomorrow.

        • Benjamin smith says:

          Ok I did send a very edited version and photo comparison of the image to you via email. Not sure if you still use your email account. Anyways here is a link with the collage, edit, and comparison I made for you. I also forgot that during this time Michigan plates were solid blue with white lettering which is not the kinds of plates on this particular vehicle. Multiple mentions of a dark blue Pontiac LeMans with a fucked up bumper and even a mentions of the perp returning to Mark Stebbins crime scene. Maybe the perp knew the media was there…
          Anyways here is the photo I created. Btw not all 1969 Lemans have the same rear ends. Also I miss labeled the year of the LeMans I used as a comparison. The LeMans was a 1969 not a 1968. I also find it interesting the car does not have stock rims…
          https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kvam1229ll71Q9e1UUeSN_1PCvbFZ9-TreRJOgpdYOQ/edit?usp=drivesdk

      • OCCK Survivor says:

        Well it is possible that woman that said it was her blue gremlin may have just said it to throw the police, as I know for sure the car we were almost kidnapped in was a green gremlin, so they painted it and still did their dirty work in that car, I mean it would have to be a small car if they are going to pull kids through the passenger window.

        • cathybroad says:

          Did the green Gremlin have a stripe? There was a guy with friends in Bloomfield Hills, living closer to Detroit, mid-20’s who drove a green Gremlin. A very old friend told me a weird story about this guy with the friends Bloomfield Hills.

          • OCCK Survivor says:

            Yes it did I called it white hockey stripe, so do tell the story about him please Cathy.

            • cathybroad says:

              Here is the story, Survivor. It was told to me earlier this summer and I passed the information on to the MSP detective currently handling the OCCK case and ran it by retired Det./Sgt. Cory Williams. I had a full name for one man but only the last name of the driver of the green Gremlin. I provided the names and the information for two reasons. 1. I totally trust the person who called me. 2. In the very long-shot event that this case gets to the genetic genealogy level where families are being discovered, this could narrow such a search.

              A man who lived near our family as a young teen called me to say he was filled with guilt for not calling sooner. He said that one day he was with relatives in Bloomfield Township. He saw a man drive up in a green Gremlin with a white hockey stripe. This guy was in his mid-20s and was coming over to visit one of his relatives who was also in his mid-20s. The Gremlin driver was from Detroit. The younger teen was sitting out front and the party was in the back yard. This man proceeded to do the weird, semi-pick up thing with the teen. Feeling awkward, he commented on the man’s car and mentioned Tim King was a friend of their family and how awful the child killings were. This man responded, kind of under his breath, “Oh really? I think they are kind of cool.” The teen waited until the man went to the back yard and then told an adult about the exchange. The adult blew him off as having an over-active imagination. I did not get a physical description of this man. And, this was over 40 years ago.

              There was another reason this story stood out to me. The friend he was visiting had been mentioned to me years ago as being very sketchy, having lived in the Cass while going to Wayne State, and had access to a blue Gremlin with a white hockey stripe.

              Very little, if anything, can be done with this information. But the thing that killed me was the guilt this man carried for not going over the adult’s head and reporting this exchange. Meanwhile, there are members of law enforcement and others who sold their souls in this case and made a deal with the Devil. They are not guilt-ridden. They could give a shit. And the many kids and teens who were not safe in Oakland County carry the scars for life. It’s crazy.

      • cathybroad says:

        GREAT eye. I see the rear end damage but wonder if that is a tail pipe, not a trailer hitch. Any ideas? I need to find some news articles and a press release about a Pontiac Tempest from the task force in the fall of 1977. They never released this more specific information, about the hitch and rear end damage. I need to pull this together to post. Thanks, Benjamin. Crazy.

        • Benjamin smith says:

          Look closer at the photo. There is a hitch. Zoom in on the plate you can see the outline of the ball in front of the license plate. In the photo the arrow I made is kinda touching the ball hitch.

    • Judi Coltman says:

      Livonia Guy – If memory serves, Dad Hastings was also a volunteer fireman with the Village, too.

  7. OCCK Survivor says:

    Hey all,
    This is so dang frustrating I can still see the kidnapper in my face, and yes he had piercing blue eyes that stared right through you, and he had like a mannequin that did not show emotion just a solid stare as he tried to get us into the car.
    He had to be sitting in his car in one of the houses we past driveways or something as he just appeared on the dirt road we were on, now he was smooth and when I say smooth I mean smooth, he drove up next to us and asked how was our day at school, She went to answer and I said, don’t just keep your head down, he kept driving the car next to us and turned it closer and closer, there was a ditch next to us, he had the car positioned perfectly he reached through the passenger window and grabbed her arm, then I grabbed her arm and pulled and pulled with his face staring at me and he tried to grab me but I pulled and pulled on her arm and her coat until we fell down.
    I am reminding you that we were two and we barely got away, but I promise you if this was the OCCK kidnapper and I am pretty sure it was as this happened right after they found Timothy’s body, I remember the principal telling us 4 children have been killed.
    So no one chased the children this guy knew that was too obvious in his gremlin car, yep it was a green gremlin with a hockey stripe, he could lean over an pull us through the passenger window, I truly believe the kids were kidnapped like that.
    No child including ourselves thought we could be kidnapped with a guy driving, never thought he could get us through the passenger window, if she was alone or I was we would have been through that window, thrown into the back seat and probably sedated, them so they could not scream.
    I don’t care what anyone says I know for sure how they kidnapped I am a survivor of it.
    I know there are other attempts and they have a totally different description than what our kidnapper looked like but ours was young, very handsome and looked so fricking innocent. I was 12 and so was the other girl we are only here because I would not let her go, the other children did not have anyone pulling them away. I wasn’t letting go even if we both got pulled in that fricking window.


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