A reader posted this theory as a comment. Elevating it to a post–

A theory…

That the police themselves were aware of their corruption is enough for them to try to hide any evidence. The hippie era shamed America, the proliferation of murders, disappearances, serial killers, underground pedophile rings, Vietnam, race riots, the senators and prosecutors of the most conservative wing of the country, the police could not be allowed to be corrupted by perversion and evil. It is better not to know, even at the risk of being unfair to the families of those poor children, than to uncover a scandal that would have collapsed the very foundations of the political and social system of the United States. If we add to that the influence of economically powerful men, the result of this theory is quite probable. Righteousness and strength, in relation to public opinion, but really rotten and full of vice in privacy, a reflection of life itself. There was and is a demand for these perversions, it has always been that way and it has always been in the sewers of the state. The unpleasant smell comes out sometimes, but every effort will be made to hide it. There is no certainty, but there are no doubts either.

This theory is pure speculation based on the data I have from the research and the data provided by your blog. I try to be objective and serious, but I make use of intuition and here I expose what I believe. I encourage other readers to do the same to contrast opinions, as well as comment, correct my mistakes or erroneous data if any. Finally, my level of English is medium-low, I had to use a good translator, in case you see grammar or spelling errors, please do not take them into account because it is not my language.


My theory is that neither Mark nor Tim were prey for Busch, nor for Greene or Sloan, but for someone powerful with an accomplice (pedophile cop) known only to Chris Busch. Only Busch knew who this unknown pedophile was, as he worked for him. He was protecting him through a trusted police contact, which explains the continued probation, plus a little help for being the son of who he was. Busch kept it from Greene for obvious reasons. This unknown and powerful man only wanted to abuse, rape and film the boy, but Busch’s task, with the help of Greene and Sloan, was to kill him and dispose of the body. DNA found and never matched would prove this theory and also the scrupulous cleanliness of the murdered children. Busch’s suicide was a set-up as such and linked to this man. One had to make sure that an unstable and increasingly paranoid Busch did not speak under pressure and end up ratting out the unknown subject. Did Busch lend his own house to this man? It’s possible, but both the lure for the kidnapping and the transportation of the body were part of the Busch/Greene/Sloan/Gunnels team’s work. In order not to raise suspicions, Busch would say all along that the child was for him, hiding the existence of the real pedophile rapist, in fact this would somehow demonstrate or justify why Busch did not invite Greene to his home, and did not end up giving him total trust, limiting his “association” and friendship with the crazy and violent Greg Greene. Busch has shown that he liked kids over 13 and in their mid-teens, which is why I believe the OCCK murders was an assignment and Busch was the liaison. This does not mean that he did not rape or murder the children, but that it was not voluntary, but a personal commission from someone we do not yet know.

In the months after Stebbins death, North Fox Island, Richards, etc. came to light. And this was happening while Busch was being called to testify on the Bowman/Gunnels allegations. It was not the right time for another child hunt for this man or even for Busch’s own fantasy. That it is “only” two children who were sodomized and murdered would show that we are not dealing with an outburst of sexual sadism or ongoing murderous rage, but of this exclusive assignment, for which Busch was the go-between and the low profiles of Greene and Sloan, acted as the architects of the dirty work. Busch would give instructions to Greene without even bothering to know who Sloan was and avoiding interacting with him, with Greene being the one who ordered Sloan and Gunnels. I have an intuition that mutual distrust reigned in this circle, that they were all pedophiles, but especially Busch, not wanting to be linked too much with either one or the other, hence Greene’s distrust of Chris Busch.

Perhaps pressured by this stranger not to associate Mark’s death with either him or the pedophile ring (clearly homosexual), he had to find a way to cover this up to mislead both the investigators and the media. The only possible way was to kidnap a girl and repeat the same MO, this time without rape because none of these savages liked girls. This is how Jill was chosen, a local acquaintance and therefore easy to locate and watch, who was abducted (December 22, 1976) and killed without being abused or raped. As bait for Jill (as later for Kristine) Gunnels was used (this explains why Gunnels regrets and is afraid to tell what he knows, he did not murder anyone, but was complicit in the abduction). The master move was, that someone seeing Jill with a teenage boy, a few years older than her, would not arouse suspicion. They waited very little time to see how the investigations were developing. Busch was still in trouble with the law but was still blowing off steam with the teenagers around him, such as his nephews, Bowman, Gunnels and probably a few other kids. For Jill’s violent death, if I had to point fingers, I’d say only Greene was capable, or maybe Richard Lawson, but Lawson I can’t seem to link to OCCK. As a police informant, I detect a suspicious arrogance in Lawson. It is possible that he knew about these abductions and rapes, but he lacked the name of Busch and of course the powerful stranger. That he implicated, perhaps out of personal grudges or revenge, Ted Lamborghini, confirms to me that he was and is an opportunistic loudmouth. The choice of exclusive children from Livonia, Ferndale, Birmingham, Royal Oak, etc, strikes me as a personal whim on the part of someone selective and not by simple sexual predators off the street, who are usually more instinctive and hunt at random. This is very important to keep in mind in my opinion.

Not seeing the opportunity (they could have abducted any Michigan child for this purpose, but it is clear that the wishes of the unknown man and Busch were exclusive and capricious) they murdered Jill and shortly thereafter decided to abduct another girl. The girl closest to both Busch and Sloan through acquaintance and family links was Kristine (January 2, 1977). This time they changed the MO because they could not get rid of the girl in less than a week, they needed to know how the investigation was going and so they kept her much longer. They had to be cautious and be absolutely sure that all this was not associated with homosexual pedophilia, but with a violent child murderer. In other words: She was used because she intended her death, like Jill’s, to be associated with a serial killer of boys and girls alike and not with a homosexual pedophile killer.


Past this time, it was time to get another child under 13 and more childlike and innocent looking to the pedophile monster who was offering big money (in case he was a corrupt cop and pedophile he would give protection, or blackmail, cover up, in exchange for) to Busch. I’m pretty sure the two knew each other from North Fox Island (or from the street if we accept the cop theory) but once the network operating there was dismantled, some truly eager clients would seek to rape children on their own. I repeat, the choice of children was not random, it had to fit the preferences or obsession of this stranger. Busch opted for Tim, who fit the bill perfectly (perhaps it was the choice all along, someone knew Tim and became obsessed with the child, it tends to happen with these monsters).

-Busch, I want this kid, can you get him for me? If you do I will turn a blind eye to anything you do on your own and help protect you in the police. Only a cop would thoroughly wash his victims to erase any traces.

Contrary to the research of the excellent cop Cory Williams, who would never question his work, I would say that Greg Greene enjoyed a few weeks bail before trial, but some arrangements were made perhaps pressured by public opinion, or the task force, for the blatant granting Busch an unfair release knowing they both had the same offences. It would make sense if you are smart and want to save his (your son’s) ass or the one you are trying to protect. Rule of thumb: Try not to arouse suspicion and do what you have to do.
This is where Greene comes in, still sporting a mane and sideburns, which he immediately removed as soon as the sketch with the infamous blue Gremlin photo appeared, a red herring by all accounts. He would later opt for the look of his California years, with glasses and short hair. John Hastings I rule out because I think he is an opportunist and I see no connections to any of the suspects. Perhaps Sloan could have been the one seen with Tim on the day of his disappearance, but I don’t know his appearance in those days. Keep in mind that he was already an expert at abducting children, provided his car (’66 Boneville) and several others to the Busch/Greene scheme of work. After Tim’s death, the common link between Busch and the unknown sexual predator vanished. His admission to prison twisted the plans and the murders ceased (I would like to know if there were more cases of reported abductions subsequent to the appearance of Tim’s body).

Time passed and Busch continued to accumulate complaints, sentences and probation. It was no longer relatively easy to get children for the unknown pedophile (the cop?) because one of his associates (Greene) was behind bars. Sloan disengaged and went on his own. Gunnels chose to disappear and tried to get his wandering way of life back on track. The short-lived gang had been disbanded. Bowman had confessed that he recognized the boy King and both had been forced into sexual touching at Busch’s house. How to overlook such a confession? Was he polygraphed on this and other questions related to the OCCK case? The interesting discovery that the first cop on the scene of Busch’s alleged suicide had been a pedophile cop brings a dead man back to life! For God’s sake, with this information the puzzle moves forward considerably. I could not trust a corrupt pedophile cop. If he was the mysterious stranger, who forced Busch and his gang to get him young children in exchange for a cover-up of criminal acts, I understand why he was released so many times and even under Task Force surveillance, continued to abuse and rape young boys with impunity. Only a police officer could turn a blind eye and report that he saw nothing suspicious about Busch during the investigation of the OCCK murders.
Busch’s death was not suicide. A psychopathic criminal has no empathy, no remorse. Mistrust of the unstable Busch precipitated his death. Busch was guilty of the kidnapping and murder, perhaps he raped the children, but I get the impression that the sodomy was perpetrated by this stranger and Busch had a little fun with the child before murdering him.


Stebbins’ abduction lasted 4 days, a reasonable time to rule out a violent, spontaneous outburst murder, typical of lone serial killers. My theory is that it was a victim selected for abuse and rape that would be filmed and photographed. We are in the golden age of buying and selling pedophile pornographic material consumed in high places. This dirty work has to be done as a team (street soldiers, led by someone trustworthy and of good family, like Busch or a cop). This leads to Chris Busch as the prime suspect in the plot. The low profile pedophile scum (Sloan, Lawson, Greene, Lamborghini) are de facto ruled out as a direct connection to Shelden or someone powerful. Mark Stebbins was not cleaned up, nor dressed scrupulously like the rest of the victims, so he may well be effectively, the first victim of these four OCCK murders. There is no indication that his death was filmed, because according to the autopsy, he died of asphyxiation. If his killer’s intention was to film his death in the middle of a rape as part of the plan, in this case it makes no sense. Why he was killed may be because the boy saw his captors at all times, especially Busch, and I do not rule out that this final decision was because he was his first victim and had not reached adolescence, when he could buy their will, their silence or threaten them with death if they talked about what happened, something that is more difficult in young children.

Juan K.

130 thoughts on “A reader posted this theory as a comment. Elevating it to a post–”

  1. I hope this person is from another country .The more foreign interest the wider the victim pool to come forward. Who knows maybe somebody overseas was in a position to grab a list they couldn’t read and stole it anyway or have pics connecting to the states 🤔.

  2. Although the person writing this admits some of his analysis is based on intuition, this has the strong feel of scary plausibility. Many thanks to Juan! Some of the puzzle pieces seem to be falling into place. Hopefully more will soon.

  3. As interesting your story “ opinion, intuition “ is . There’s a few clogs In it. Catherine , has proved over and over and over again that Greg Greene was squeezing bars when Tim was abducted . Those composites WERE not of him . Nor were they of fat fuck, Grizzly Adams either. I personally don’t think the composites were of the grease monkey Sloan either. I have a hard time picturing him wearing a sports jacket. He doesn’t seem the dapper type. The two witnesses gave a VERY clear description on what the suspect looked like. Doug Wilson was able to describe Tim King to a T, so why couldn’t he describe the suspect to a T as well? Those two are the only witnesses that have actually seen a suspect is all we currently have to work with. AS OF TODAY. As far as I’m concerned John Hastings is the one that fits those very IMPORTANT composites. He’s the one that has admitted to the crimes. He’s the one that has failed a polygraph.

      1. It may sound harsh or what not; however, there’s huge importance pertaining to Sloans hygiene and dress. He worked at a gas station if I’m correct. I have a hard time thinking he was dressed dapperly at Hunter Maple on March 16 8:30pm 1977.

        1. I don’t think your being harsh on a child rapist , and I agree .There is a not so subtle difference between a long hair hippy slob that most birmingham parent shad at the time and Sloan .This guy lived in filth had no class and we can infer from the police report ,that the DNA was mix with all sorts of trash from his car .He’s the guy house wife’s back then won’t stand in line with at a gas station.

        2. I was 9-10 years old living in Ferndale during the time of the OCCK. My neighbors were garbage collectors, plant workers, mechanics- all blue collar. Every single one of them were perfectly capable of putting on a suit to go out and you would have no idea they were a ‘grease monkey’. Do you really think if you were going to risk being caught kidnapping a child that you wouldn’t try to fit in with your surroundings? I’m guessing that someone that looks like they just crawled out from under a car was not going to try going into Birmingham to gain the trust of a child. I put very little credence into the composites in terms of hair, dress, glasses- anything that can be easily modified. I’ve never been a criminal, but I would think you would do as much as possible to NOT look like yourself when committing a crime. Busch is the only suspect that couldn’t fully disguise himself because even if he shaved his beard- he would have stood out because of his size. To me, that composite could be just about any of the other suspects if you put a wig on them, dressed them up, etc.

          I also doubt you would drive a tattered, dirty Bonneville into Birmingham to kidnap a child. I’m guessing that vehicle was used later on.

          1. I would like to politely agree to disagree. I take those Composites very very sacred. Doug Wilson was able to describe Tim King to a T. He was able to even tell the color of Tims skateboard. Now if he was able to describe Tim perfectly, why couldn’t he describe the suspect as well? There’s zero chances that Doug Wilson saw Fat fuck Busch. Zero chances he saw widow peak scum bag Greene. Zero chance he saw bald as a bat Lamborghine. I’m not sure what Sloan looked like back in 77. From the photos I did see of him, he wasn’t the suave, dapper type. Granted I very well could be way off base here; however, if I was a betting man, I like my percentages better than yours.

            1. JN, I don’t think you are actually absorbing what I am saying. You keep referring to hair or lack thereof, that came be changed very easily with a wig. (Which Lamborgine was known to wear). Anyone can look suave or dapper with the right clothes on and even a ‘grease monkey’ knows how to put on a suit. I do respect the composites, but not when it comes to the hair or clothes being truly representative of who committed the crimes. In other words, you seem very attached to the fact the person was seen wearing a sport coat. Personally, I don’t care about that. As I have said, I have seen many blue-collar individuals wearing a sport coat, and I would think the perpetrator would know they would need to dress in a way that would not be out of place for Birmingham.

              No idea what you mean about your percentages vs mine. All I am saying is that just about any suspect mentioned in this blog could be one of the composites if dressed properly, wore a wig, ditched their glasses, etc- with the exception of Busch. I know you think it is Hastings, but to me, he is one of many possibilities. Clothes and hair don’t rule people out for me as they are both are easily modified.

            2. My point is IF there was 💯 that it was indeed Hastings that bumped into Polly Coltman earlier at HP, than most definitely it was Hastings that was seen talking to Tim.

  4. What a nice little story with a ribbon wrapped around it. Interesting how Lawson is thrown back in the mix. Where’s the ‘complete’ written results and conclusions from Hastings polygraph? I’ve seen enough excuses!!!!

  5. Juan’s concept may help organize at least some of the seemingly disparate pieces of information and evidence. Other pieces may fit in in the future if people stay open to it. The following thoughts aren’t intended to address all of the pieces. Readers will have their own thoughts and call this speculation.

    Did the OCCK abductions and killings stop after Tim’s murder because Greene was in prison and Busch was perhaps institutionalized or out of the country until the fall of 1978 when he was killed? Or did they stop for another reason? If Mark and Tim were the victims of the same pedophile, why the 13-month lapse? Why were girls taken and killed? Why was Kris violated? Why the 10 months between Mark’s and Jill’s murders? What was going on in the pedo’s head that this much time elapsed and girls were taken?

    Say the pedophile was a very powerful person in the County in law enforcement and/or in the community. Maybe that person’s name was on the subscriber list, maybe not. What if no one knew that person was a pedo or that he was curious about it. What if Chris Busch didn’t even know who he was working for and/or then was coerced into service because the pedo knew his track record and had the ability to do something about it or knew his father/family.

    Say Mark was a test case in Oakland County, and the process worked. Then nobody with influence cared enough to push the investigation hard, while at the same time the pedo with power, or influence, wielded it subtly to ensure no results.

    Nothing for ten months following Mark’s murder because this perhaps exploring pedo wasn’t ready or had to plan for what he wanted next. Then the girls were to throw people off track before the next boy, the real target.

    Or perhaps the girls were not part of the pedo’s plan but were Greene’s responsibility because Greene was humiliated by Gunnells. (How? Perhaps he said Greene couldn’t get it on with a girl. Gunnells could.) In any event, Greene said he wished Gunnells were dead but he wouldn’t say why. What other reasons could there be? Greene was mean enough to kill Jill by her nightmare and make Gunnells dispose of Kris’s body. How does Jim Cox the Berkely cop fit in? Perhaps the pedo doesn’t worry about the girls because their deaths don’t point a finger at him.

    Why weren’t Busch and Greene poly’d about the girls? Was it just because Greene named Busch for Stebbins’ murder? Maybe Greene was keeping the spotlight off the girls and himself. Maybe the girls weren’t part of a plan that Busch knew and Greene only knew part of. Still, why didn’t LE care about asking about the girls? (Maybe they did and I am mistaken.)

    In early 1977 Busch and Greene are dealt with, each in their own way, thanks to the power, or influence, of the pedo. Having at least Busch still available to orchestrate things for the pedo sets the stage for the ultimate target.

    It looks like Tim’s handlers/killers were tipped on 3/22 that all cars were going to be stopped and searched during the evening shift. By tipping Busch the pedo would protect himself. Just like the earlier decision to unconstitutionally stop and search blue Gremlins was a pr stunt showing the OCP was taking action; perhaps it was also a misdirect. Those unconstitutional stops didn’t put the pedo and Busch et al at any risk.

    Why did Busch say the things he said at his polys? Did he think it was his only way out of the deal and the only way to make it stop? Little kids and murder previously weren’t his thing. Did his parents hide him somewhere for the rest of ’77 and most of ’78 to protect him and/or others?

    Killing Busch in a suicide set-up gets rid of Busch. That death scene with all of the OCCK related or themed items was not intended to be shared with the public and it wasn’t. It looks like a message to anyone else involved, even if they didn’t know who the pedo or other players were. Silence or else. Some have speculated that Greene’s “heart attack” with his eyes open while watching tv in prison in the early ’90’s wasn’t a heart attack.

    How long was the list of men in the County with this much power and/or influence over internal and external processes and resources, men who were also the least likely to be suspected? So much power and influence, and so much personal weakness and/or corruption on the part of others, that no one wants to say anything that would shock the world and ruin reputations 46 years later. Nothing to see here, move along.

  6. I think we should stop trying to get info from the source(Michigan) and start asking other states who busted large pedo operations.There was so much cross over with these guys and (sharing) ,Maybe some out of state dept.has evidence they don’t know is important to the OCCK? What if Kristine was gone so long because they flew or drove her somewhere?

    1. We know that Sloan and Gunnels are connected in some way. Sloan most definitely considering two of the Boys killed hair was found in his vehicle . He may have not been involved, but he knows who was. He knows something. The mere fact that he won’t talk , even when they would have made a deal with him. There’s no question the powers at be killed Busch. Totally impossible for him to kill him self and then wrap himself up in a blanket. That being said “ who killed him? Hastings who lived two streets over from him? Busch own family? To salvage daddy’s reputation? Did pedophile Cop McNamee do him in? He was the first cop at the scene. There’s questions whether the buys were molested while being held or just molested post mortem. I feel this is VERY important. If they were only molested after death. I’m ruling out BUSCH, GREENE, SLOAN , LAMBORGHINE. You ask why? Because those freaks would have NEVER let those boys not be molested. I question them on the pure fact that two girls were killed , when three pedo asses were sorely into little boys. Doesn’t add up. There’s no rap sheet on Hastings though. He’s known to have girl friends .

  7. Everybody ! Pedophila is a secret life ! You can be married with children ,you can have an age appropriate gay relashionship and still be a child rapist . You can even have bisexual preferences. I read something recently that links hoarding ,obsessive compulsive and pedophilia all together .That’s why these guys never stop till they die ,it’s a compulsion .I’m with Pat Coffey kill them all.

  8. Aaugg! I just sent you a share from the internet ,that proves the Gay underground in Berkley .I can’t seem to send it from here on my phone .There are pics and everything!

  9. This is a READER’S / JUAN’S THEORY??

    “In my opinion”, are the (3) THREE basic words an attorney will tell you to say before you accuse someone of something so you are protected under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (Freedom of Speech). “IN MY OPINION, yes, MY OPINION, this post (JUAN K’s THEORY) is a CONFESSION by an individual who has inside knowledge/information of the OCCK perpetrators.”

    JUAN’S THEORY starts out as follows:

    “My theory is that neither Mark nor Tim were prey for Busch, nor for Greene or Sloan, but for someone powerful with an accomplice (pedophile cop) known only to Chris Busch. Only Busch knew who this unknown pedophile was, as he worked for him. He was protecting him through a trusted police contact, which explains the continued probation, plus a little help for being the son of who he was. Busch kept it from Greene for obvious reasons.”

    JUAN just explained what happened in the OCCK case the first (2) TWO sentences of his theory, “JUAN’S THEORY”.

    Does JUAN have a GUILTY CONSCIENCE?? Does JUAN feel the need to spill the beans on this blog by portraying himself as some non-english speaking foreigner with a translator to clear his conscience??

    Was JUAN was duped by Christopher Bush (since his partner in crime GREENE was locked up) to assist Busch in an abduction for “SOMEONE POWERFUL & the PEDOPHILE COP.” Did JUAN agree to assist Busch for a quick and lucrative payday for child trafficking, not realizing it would make him an accomplice in a murder?

    Let’s examine JUAN’S THEORY along with the only suspect that is cleared in JUAN’S THEORY in JUAN’S own words that follow:

    ” JOHN HASTINGS I rule out because I think he is an opportunist and I see no connections to any of the suspects.”


    For starters, I have a bachelor’s degree in Spanish from Western Michigan University and can speak Spanish. My children are 50% Spanish/Mexican.

    JUAN translated into English is JOHN.

    Furthermore, I do not know of any Spanish, Mexican or Hispanic person with a spanish surname that begins with the letter K!!!!

    Hey Johnny Boy, thank you for telling us all the truth by revealing your theory.

    I bet you are glad Cathy or Appleman never tracked down or found a copy of your Georgia Polygraph recordings administered by DUNCAN.

    Johnny Boy, I have a question for you regarding your theory: Does the initial/letter K for you last name stand for KILLER as in OCCK or for KING the one abduction you participated in? Just asking.

    IN MY OPINION, JUAN’S theory mentioned in the above post on Cathy’s Blog was written John Hastings. The “pedophile cop” in Juan’s theory is Bloomfield Twp. Officer McNamee & the “someone powerful” in Juan’s theory is Francis Shelden.

    1. I just reread it, your right ! It’s someone pretending to be mexican , with a pretty good idea of American search & seizure law. But Unckle got pulled over so much ,he had to carry a card with him ,stating he was already cleared. People were given a heads up about the search ,which defeated the whole thing. But your right , he’s reading this and thinks we are all a bunch of dumbells. I’m new to this forum , and it’s impressive how well things get picked apart.

    2. Things that make you go hmmm. 🤔 this is all too intriguing and I had to read it several times . Why wouldn’t it surprise me that Hastings would do this? “ in my opinion it’s not John Hastings because he was an opportunist”. How did Juan know that Hastings was an opportunist? What gave Juan this inclination about Haystack? Did Hastings abduct Tim because it was a perfect opportunity for him considering the time of night? Because he was alone? Hastings just conveniently was at Hunter Maple at 8:30pm. Or did Hastings see Tim earlier in the day with his friends? Did Hastings bump into Polly Coltman earlier at HP? Then Polly seeing him driving around the neighborhood.

    3. Interesting theory. As I read that post the first time I thought “this person writes better than most Americans, no way this isn’t their first language”. I don’t think translation programs are as perfect as this is written either.

  10. It could be anyone. Perhaps someone with inside knowledge playing games. Most definitely someone that seems to know this case quite well.

    On those thoughts of Hastings though, in the first paragraph I sense something that Helen talked about often was his thesis he wrote dealing with the collapse of the economic society or something on those lines. Perhaps someone can find that and see if there are similar wording or exact phrases to this. Also I sense a flavor of the famous Allen letter sprinkled in there as well or at least it reminds me some of it.

    Could be Hastings or maybe someone making it look like Hastings as well as it’s so hard to say. Maybe just a coincidence or two. Is it someone else trying to steer it away from Hastings? A Hastings relative or maybe even Gray himself? There were others long ago that seem to play games as well. Inspector71 comes to mind who tried to threaten Lilly if I remember correctly. Does anyone here remember those posts (Topix days) ?

    When we have something as corrupt as the investigation of OCCK and most certainly a cover up of Busch it’s so hard to say on anything anymore. The ones in charge now have no clue on anything and are in a position where they don’t know what to do with any of it. So they do nothing! A polygraph from Georgia in 2009 that the records were buried by MSP so no one could ever find the truth. Although, there were some bread crumbs left behind in the FOIA docs that no one can explain even today. DNA that they can’t seem to want to do anything with for a least another century or so to protect the innocent.

    Seems like it opens the doors for any type of speculation or any games to be played by anyone. The OCCK could come along and reveal themselves right now at their doorsteps and they would do nothing because too much was buried to ever resolve anything with this case.

    1. I always have this hunch that either brother Michael Hastings and sister Mary were either involved of helping covering for John boy. When Mary was questioned about her brother being involved , her response was “ prove it”. I find it interesting that she worked at the mental institution close by where Tim was found. The same institution that Dr . Bruce Danto worked at. More coincidences pertaining to Johnny Soco. Was Hastings a patient at this facility . Was he under the care of Danto? Like I’ve said a million times. He’s alive and free in an Atlanta suburb. Busch, Greene, Norberg, Sheldon all dead . Can’t get answers from a dead man. Sloan in prison for life and refuses to talk. Gunnels has amnesia . If I was king, I guarantee Hastings, Sloan, Gunnels 💯 would be spilling their guts . They would or they would literally spill them.

      1. Totally agree- the dream would be for Sloan, Hastings and Gunnels to talk and I’d put Lamborgine in there as well. Wish Bowman could be hypnotized or something to see if it was truly Tim he was with in the car, but he has already been through a lot. I’m betting the lone surviving Busch brother has some info as well, and probably Greene’s brother too. I also wonder if there is a storage unit somewhere to still holds the evidence in the case that was supposedly destroyed by Biblical Floods and such. Let’s add Duncan down in Georgia to the list too, would love to see his records on the Hastings polygraph. (Assuming they kept a copy. Either way, I bet he remembers talking to Hastings.)

      2. Agree, Hastings family covered for John boy. It is unforgivable that no one in law enforcement has contacted Steve Duncan, now at Georgia Public Safety, to ask him what he recalls about interviewing and polygraphing Hastings and what he recalls about talking to MSP Det./Sgt. Garry Gray about all of it. I’ve written about it numerous times. https://catherinebroad.blog/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Duncan-email-.pdf; https://catherinebroad.blog/2021/04/. I have told current investigators, including representatives of the current OCP office, that this is something easy they could do to try to get to the bottom of this. Pick up the phone and see if this polygrapher has any recollection of this stuff. Why should I have to pay the MSP almost $300 for them to “search” for this file material on Hastings and then tell me to go fuck myself? The documents/information are MIA. Why should I have to file a FOIA request with Georgia Highway Patrol? ONE FUCKING PHONE CALL is all it would take for someone in LE to see if Duncan remembers any of this. Too much to ask.

        1. This is probably a stupid question, but can a FOIA request be filed with Georgia to get polygraph info?

            1. Two of the three emails I sent Duncan bounced back. One did not. He never responded. I begged the guy to talk to me or Cory Williams. The Thin Blue Line strikes again.

              1. Maybe Nancy Grace could take this on – she is in Atlanta and maybe she could profile the case in general. No idea how you go about that though.

  11. Inquisitor is right, the author could be anyone. ISP addresses can come back to Madrid or other parts of Spain, but anyone using a VPN service can choose to reroute through encrypted privacy tunnels across shared networks and show up as coming from any country or part of the US that they choose, with the push of a button. Many people who comment here use temporary/disappearing email addresses or secondary gmail addresses (with no linking information). Many use aliases rather than a real name. Some people won’t even comment here and send me emails directly.

    Whoever the author is, some points are raised that are worth discussing or thinking about. My own opinion is that the writing is way too articulate for Haystack (I love that name, thank you.). I’ve read transcripts of his discussions with police in 1992 and again in the mid-2000’s and the guy is no brain surgeon. I know everyone thinks a Bloomfield Village resident who graduated from Brother Rice must be above average in every respect, but I have bad news for you. Not. True.

    Just some other random comments–all of the players described in this comment are guilty of felony murder. You, too, Vinny. I do not believe Greene ever walked free after he was arrested in Flint on January 25, 1977. Long before I would have ever suspected Richard Thompson and L. Brooks Patterson playing games with Chris Busch and Greg Greene’s situations in Flint that fateful week, I read the pre-sentence report prepared by PA David S. Witter for sentencing Judge Philip Elliott in Greene’s first degree CSC with a minor case in Flint. Greene had pleaded guilty on March 30, 1977. The report explains that as of that date, “[a] $25,000 Bond was not furnished and was cancelled on the date of conviction.” The report notes that as of the date scheduled for sentencing, June 14, 1977, Greene “has spent 141 days in Jail.” In the understatement of the century, Witter states: “This man cannot be considered a candidate for Probation.”

    January 25, 1977 to June 14, 1977 is 141 days. You can make the argument that Witter was just counting the days on the calendar and was perhaps unaware that some idiot at Flint PD let this animal walk for a couple of weeks before coming back to jail at some point before March 30, but I’m not buying it. His stupid prison card had a handwritten admonition at the top: KEEP SECURED AT ALL TIMES. That argument would have to include the fact that there is no record of any bond being posted or of the the release and rearrest. Sorry, it just doesn’t work.

    As we have seen (and certainly I have) from all of the photos people have sent me over the last decade of neighbors, brothers, cousins, fathers and uncles who look like the composite drawn based on witness descriptions at my brother’s abduction site, lots of guys looked like the drawing. Greene and his goddamn widow’s peak hairline (not on any of the drawings) was in the Flint jail the night my brother was abducted.

    I also believe that during the week of January 25, 1977, Richard Thompson and Brooks Patterson thought they had the OCCK in jail and it was Greene. No way that monster, who had an atrocious rap sheet from California, was going free before his case was adjudicated. The problem was that there could be no connection between Greene and Busch. Ever. We all know how it went for the child-raping son of H. Lee Busch. Imagine the shock when my brother goes missing the evening of March 16. Greene was in prison. WTH?!

    More to follow about other issues raised by Juan K’s theory and why I think Haystack is involved or has a damn good reason to have intimate knowledge of these crimes.

  12. More comments on Juan’s theory. The big/secret client theory rings true to me. As I have explained before, a victim of the child sex ring from that area and era told me some of these freaks wanted “catalogue kids,” clean/innocent kids from the suburbs. One man wanted kids with a gap in their teeth. He was from the suburbs, he wasn’t an Arch Sloan or a Ted Lamborgine. I am sure his family would do ANYTHING to protect his memory and their family ties. And murder victim (9/77) John McKinney was business partners with Donna and Pat Coffey, who lived across the street from us. He was over at their house many times and for sure he knew who Tim was because Tim was playing with the Coffey kids all the time. Tim would have gotten into a car with this man, who would have “been heading right by your house anyway.”

    Juan K makes a very important point about how in the hell police dismissed Ken Bowman’s information about having sexual contact with Tim King. The police always dismiss the victims in this case. I spoke with a commander from the Birmingham PD a few years ago who had been contacted by Bowman who wanted to tell police AGAIN about this incident. He had already provided a DNA sample and been ruled out as the donor of hair evidence. The commander said he was so earnest and the information seemed so important that he wrote it up and passed it on to the MSP and FBI Agent Sean Callaghan, WHO BLEW THE INFORMATION AND THE COMMANDER OFF.

    Here is some other information I received a few years ago from the anonymous victim who gave information about “catalogue kids,” and while it is hearsay, I literally cannot believe it has been dismissed by investigators in this case. This person has legal representation and is telling the truth. I am SO PISSED it has been written off. Richard Lawson, Arch Sloan, Vince Gunnels–sure, let’s hear it. A person who was young when victimized or a young witness? Worthless info, get lost. Unbelievable. It’s all fucking there. It’s not a construct, but it does implicate a lot of “upstanding” men in Michigan.

    The information was as follows, and I have written about this plausible information before. Hastings, who you recall lived in the same small enclave neighborhood as Busch, and who was the same age as Busch and a similarly underemployed son of someone who could afford to live in The Village, was a “hanger on” of Busch. He (and at times a guy this person believed was one of Hastings’ brothers) were around “the rooms” where kids were being peddled and filmed. That he was scared shitless of Greg Greene. That he often had a notebook with him that he wrote in. That it didn’t seem like he was a pedophile (so more of a kid runner). That Busch acted important when he would show up, but everyone thought he was a putz. That Busch tolerated Hastings and that they “had something on him,” because when he was in junior high or high school, he had pushed a neighborhood kid off of a water tower and he had died.

    Then there was the reader who saw the 1977-ish photo of Hastings and said he knows Hastings was the man who was dressed as a woman with a black funeral veil and long gloves on who appeared in a church bathroom in Oakland County and tried to engage with him when he was a young boy. Maybe you can’t remember anything from when you were 10, but if this shit happened to you, I guarantee you would never forget it.

    Trafficking kids was more lucrative and less dangerous than trafficking drugs in the 1970s. Easy money. And the odds of even getting arrested were between slim and none. IN MY OPINION, Hastings was in this group of men who were nabbing kids in Wayne and Oakland County. Polygrapher Steve Duncan’s read on Hastings in 2009 was that he most certainly knew Chris Busch and had knowledge or was involved in the OCCK crimes. THIS WAS NEVER FOLLOWED UP ON. Garry Gray buried it.

    Obviously, somebody/somebodies escalated this shit either for their own sick purposes, or, as Juan K. describes, for a high-paying “client.”

    But, oh yeah, let’s just write Hastings off as some true crime jerk-off/wanna-be. Fuck him and fuck his family. All of them. I know you know.

    1. I agree with you Cathy 💯. A 10yr old would have been traumatized being approached by a man dressed up as a woman back in 77. It’s something they would NEVER forget. Obviously when they seen the 77 photo of that fucking fruit cake Haystack, it triggered there subconscious and brought back the memory. Helen Dagner fabricated a lot ;however, she felt very strongly that he was the one. She stuck to her guns. I wish this Jack ass still lived in northern Oakland county. If he thought Duncan interrogated his sorry ass. I’m just flabbergasted that the show COLD CASE FILES wouldn’t look at our case. That’s the whole premise of the fucking show! Fuck u Mike, Tom, Mary and Patty. Every dog has their day. Your day of reconning

  13. Your theorist invited comments. Here are mine. Observations only, I draw few conclusions.

    It was never necessary for the Cass Corridor creeps to kidnap children, to get their perverted needs met, according to the interviews and investigations of Det. Williams and others.

    Duffy supplied Lawson, Lamborgine, Moore, and associates with all the 10-12 year old white boys they could want, apparently – no suggestion by anyone, that any of those boys were abducted. Boy prostitutes aged 13-17 abounded in the area as well. Moore had his own stable of teen boys, living in his house(s). Many, if not most of these boys doubled as CSA images “models” when required. No need to abduct a boy, (or a girl), just to make more child porn.

    Nor, to supply some wealthy perv client in the suburbs with ‘rough trade’ from time to time.
    And if that client had a thing for clean, healthy ‘well-bred’ boys like his own sons…why not abuse his own sons? Many upper-crust perverts have. Or his son’s friends, or his friend’s sons, or run a scout troop…but if not, a boy pimp pederast could seduce & defile suburban kids too. They aren’t immune to greed, bribery, sexual seduction, drug addiction, or extortion either.

    There was also “Gerry’s boys”, a little more middle-class fare, 10-16 years old. Pictures & prostitution – none of them had to be, or were, abducted. The tragic boys taken to North Fox Island, molested and photographed like the actual (not hypothetical) victims in the Discovery film? Suckered, not abducted.
    And ultimately, if there ever were CSA images of one or more of the four OCCK victims, they could not have been sold or commercially distributed – or they’d be in the pervert collections in Amsterdam (Dutch police said NO), or the NCMEC database of seized images. And they are not.

    There’s no mention of Busch or Greene or Hastings in the Gorzen reports. Gerald Richards mentions Tazelar, but not Busch-Greene. Neither Busch or Greene are present for the group deflowering of little E. (but the rarely mentioned Church of the New Revelation guy is), what ultimately takes down Richards and Shelden.

    If you haven’t read the investigator reports, Det. Williams asks ALL the Cass Corridor associated perverts, and their child victims, if they knew Busch-Greene – sometimes showing them photos. They all say no. Including a boy prostitute who used to hang at Moore’s house, and was very definite he’d never seen Busch-Greene…but just as certain he did see Gunnels at Moore’s place. None of them say anything about having ever seen one or more OCCK victim, in their circles, either.
    All of these people, are conspiring together to lie and to conceal their knowledge of Busch-Greene or Hastings? Not just back in the day, but still today?

  14. Hmm.

    I agree generally with “Juan’s” theory that Busch was likely working for/with someone rich, connected and powerful, someone unknown to the Greene/Gunnels/Sloan/Hastings (?) level of the ring.

    I agree that Busch’s “suicide” eliminated any link to this higher level of the ring. His death scene was clearly staged to frame Busch, and Busch alone, as the sole OCCK.

    And it is vaguely possible that Tim King had been noticed earlier by someone in the OCCK ring.

    But unless we believe that Tim had pre-arranged to meet his own abductor at 8:15 pm on a Wednesday (to arrange the sale of his skateboard, maybe? That’s theoretically possible, but EXTREMELY unlikely), then we have to conclude that Tim’s kidnapping was put together on the fly at a moment’s notice.

    1. Tim rode to the pharmacy for the two blocks on public sidewalks on Yorkshire, across Adams and down Knox to the parking lot behind the Hunter Maple drug store.

    2. Tim was in the parking lot, talking with one man who seemed to be connected to another man sitting in a car nearby.

    These two men were a team, and surely they were not sitting in the car completely at random, casing the back parking lot of the Hunter-Maple for a single kid to come along at 8:15 on a Wednesday night, a school night.
    In mid March, Michigan is pitch black at that time in the evening – there is no way this team could honestly have expected to find any unaccompanied minors at that time of night.

    No, the only reason for those men had to have been in that parking lot was because minutes earlier they must have actually seen Tim go by them on his way to the drug store. These men then followed Tim to the Hunter Maple drug store in their car and waited for him to come out the back.

    Whoever they were, this team almost certainly had access to a house directly on the route to the Hunter Maple pharmacy, a house from which they spotted Tim.

    1. I certainly agree with almost every bit you just said. There’s no way that those two guys were sitting in the lot on a Wednesday night waiting for a kid to come out. It’s possible that Haystack ran into Tim earlier in the day. When he ran into Polly Coltman at 4:00pm at HP. Then she seen him patrolling the neighborhood. It’s even possible that he followed Tim to his house earlier and waited .I know this is a hypothesis, but you have to theorize . It’s very well possible that they didn’t abduct Tim right in the parking lot of HP. They could have waited u too he reached KNOX rd where it’s very dark. It would have taken HUGE balls to grab a kid in a busy parking lot. From what I’ve gathered Tim was very alert and was talked to about the things that were going on. So him going willingly is out of the question. MY OPINION . It’s possible they pulled up on him on KNOX and the passenger jumped out and grabbed.

    2. That could include John McKinney visiting or going to/from the Coffeys’ house on Yorkshire, calling in the Tim sighting to that team, and/or being part of it and recognizable to Tim.

      Regardless of the unusually warm beautiful day and the kids being out in it, yes, it would’ve been pitch black at 8:15 p.m.

      Even if child hunters knew that HM and the Chatham grocery store lot was a popular place for kids to hang out and had seen them there earlier that beautiful day, it’s hard to believe the hunters would hang out at 8 pm in the dark hoping a lone child of the right age would come along.

    3. To add a little to that. If we are to believe Polly’s story to any degree, which I do along with many others and if I understand the details correctly. It sure seems like they were scouting for kids in that general area (inside pharmacy and the park nearby), hours earlier base purely on Polly’s story. Where she probably ran into one of them at the pharmacy and further saw him scouting around the park and stopping in front of her house eventually. Maybe Tim was the one chosen all along and it was a matter of finding him alone without his friends which he was probably with at that time of Polly’s occurrence. It seems that being caught inside the pharmacy and right after circling the park and stopping in front of one of Tim’s friend’s house which happen to be Polly’s house kind of promotes that possibility. Or at least that the person scouting knew of a connection between Tim and Polly’s son that they were friends or seen together earlier that day. Maybe they were continuous scouting much later in the evening when they finally found Tim without his friends. Then from there, it’s a matter of timing when there is the least amount of people around and/or traffic to make their move. Parking lot would most likely be the place rather than inside the pharmacy or residential area. If I’m off on anything I state, please join in.

      1. Just saw JN post after I posted mine. Basically we make the same point. This has happened to me a few times now. I’m becoming his echo. Sorry about that.

    4. I agree with you, JN and Inquisitor. The “How” is a good opinion with excellent points.

      Access to a house directly on the route would include 930 Knox Street. The Faxon house.

      I knew he was a collector, but did not realize he could have drawn the sketch at the “suicide scene”.

      Faxon experimented with abstraction, portraiture, and figurative methods of artmaking.


      1. The property records show that lot was empty until 1996 when 930 Knox was built. Faxon bought it from the builder.

        1. That is correct, however one is then forced to conclude that Faxon’s 1996 purchase of that land parcel on that small block of Knox was a “coincidence.”

          I don’t rely on “coincidence” to explain the world.

          In any event whoever the kidnappers were, they had to have seen Tim on his skateboard en route to Hunter Maple. They could not have known in advance he would come out at that time of night – no one did. Until he asked her for money, not even Cathy knew that Tim was planning to go to the drug store – he had never done it by himself before.

          So, those men were there because they had just made a quick decision to try to kidnap him right then. And that was possible only if they had just seen him. And that was possible only if they were right there on Tim’s route.

          JN, even if the creep seen by Polly Coltman at 4 in the afternoon was indeed John Hastings, there is still no way to get Hastings into that parking lot at 8 UNLESS he could later see the street from a house on Yorkshire or Knox. Whoever the kidnappers were (and one of them may well have been Hastings), at least one of them had a house to use right there.

          1. I’m going to disagree with you at the highest level. IF IT WAS JOHN HASTINGS “Beyond a doubt” THAT BUMPED INTO POLLY COLTMAN , THERES ABSOLUTELY 90% THAT HASTINGS INDEED CAME BACK LATER OR JUST CONTINUED CIRCLING THE NEIGHBORHOOD. There’s just no logical way of thought that another creep showed up later. Not to mention that Hastings fits those composites to a T. You can argue all you want that many looked like this way in the late 70’s; however, NONE of our suspects look so compelling like Haystack does. Do you think a child like Tim would converse with Grizzly Adams? Do you think he would stand in the lot carrying a conversation with a intimidating grease monkey? Or would he more apt to converse with a mild mannered man child? “ HAYSTACK!

            1. JN, have you given up on your friend’s theory (Detective John Taylor), that Paul Johnson was involved?

              1. I haven’t given up on Paul Johnson as a viable suspect. I kinda think there’s a lot of similarities between Hastings and Johnson. Their personalities seem a lot similar. Both introverts, both very strange, both having flat affects. That being said , until proven innocent Hastings is still my guy. He’s admitted to the murders. Even if he’s lying, what kind of psychopath would say they killed kids and lie about it? Should a person like this be free? He failed a polygraph. THAT HAS YET TO BE ADDRESSED. it’s a shame my old friend Johnny Taylor has passed. I was very young when he disclosed his theories. I did always thought Johnny was talking about Hastings when he told us about his suspect. He never gave us a name . So I was a little shocked when it turned out to be Paul Johnson. I do know Johnny Taylor was a very good detective and took his job very serious . I remember him telling us back in 82 that this Kid “ Robert OGG” who was found murdered at his bus stop in Ortonville , that the mom did it. It turned out that she did in fact kill her child.

                1. I agree. Both are very similar. And both admitted to being involved. Maybe both admitted to it because they wanted attention and knew someone that was involved. But that is only speculation. I never met or talked to them.

                  Taylor did a thorough job in his investigation as shown in the FOIA files. He seemed convinced it was Johnson. I guess we both were a bit stunned when reading the information and being introduced to yet another suspect. Especially one that also fits the composite drawing.

                  1. The biggest question is why this case is always such a big shell game. And why, when there is an obvious step or two that could be taken with a suspect like Haystack (speak to Duncan, find those “missing” polygraph files/tapes and review them, interrogate his ass hard) to at least pretend that this lead was adequately extinguished. Johnson–yes, very disturbing, especially the things he says my brother said to him. So why did that lead go no where? Why all the tempest-in-a-teapots that go nowhere? You would think somebody high up the food chain was/is pretty secure in the mishandling and poor storage of the evidence in this case. No perfect DNA means they won’t clear the case. And what if DNA comes back to a man in one of the kids’ cases? That man would be the tip of the iceberg. Do you honestly think the MSP would put in the detective work if DNA testing yielded genetic genealogy answers that lead to one pedophile? This case is so, so botched, from Day #1 and that, among other reasons, is why you have thousands and thousands of FOIA documents that reveal suspect after suspect who never was adequately ruled out. They dropped this hot potato as fast as they could and therefore as the decades passed, those who don’t want this case solved take solace every time some other witness, cop or prosecutor dies. The biggest questions are not who was wearing what, who was in the pharmacy parking lot, who drove what car. The biggest questions involve the handling of this case by the OCP and the MSP, and why are they allowed to stay silent on a 45-year-old case that they themselves say in deed, if not word, will never be solved.

                    1. You are correct. It is a big cover up where the investigators act as if they are busy, but actually do nothing. Or worse, direct the investigation in the wrong direction. Then they pat themselves on the back for “investigating” thousands of tips.

                      Next they award themselves a performance bonus, and someone gets a promotion/elected for their work on the case. Then get your pension before anyone gets wise to the real story. Just killing time to get a pension. Killing time and children.

                    2. I would like to ask you something about Tim. You say, “very disturbing, especially the things he says my brother said to him.”

                      Johnson said Tim liked to read, and played with the cat. When Johnson called Tim “Teddy Bear”, Tim would reply, “My name is Tim and my Dad will kill you for this.”
                      Does this sound like something Tim would have said? Thanks.

                    3. G-man , very good question. I was going to ask Catherine that. Wow if that sounds like something Tim would have said . Maybe Johnson should be under a microscope. I remember Johnny said , he went to see Johnson at Clintonvalley and telling him that he would get him before he died. Like Hastings , Johnson is still alive and free.

                    4. JN,

                      I’m sure you did not ask earlier because you wished to respect the family. I know that is how I felt, and I thank Cathy for her kindness and answering.

                      So let me ask another question (or 4). It took me a while to read that FOIA report by Taylor. Like Cory’s notes, I find myself reading them several times. It was quite well written and he justified his stance. “Johnson was the guy” according to Taylor. Of course Taylor may not know about JH also, but that is another discussion.

                      My question is why would a fellow investigation office (MSP), not follow up on it? Where is the professional courtesy to another fellow officer (Sheriff’s department)? Who is preventing the MSP or OCP from investigating further with the Sheriff’s department? And what about the FBI agent that was involved?

                      It took me 15 minutes to spot that Johnson lived a few doors down from JH’s sister. Once again, one of those silly coincidences. Why was that not a red flag?

                      I have not even begun to dig into a CB link.

                      Another well written investigative report going no where for what reason? Ego? Did MSP have to solve the case or nobody else?

                      Sorry about my long winded response but the crime was committed and the new crime continues 45 years later with the cover up.

                    5. That’s exactly why I didn’t ask that question. Wow I had no clue Johnson lived a few houses from Hastings sister. Coincidence and Coincidence. Hmmm 🤔 I wonder if Haystack met Johnson. Johnny Taylor was our neighbor in the 70’s and 80’s. I believe after he retired he moved to Caro and spent the winters in Arizona. Unfortunately he passed away a number of years back. We lost all contact with him when he moved. I didn’t really think of the case in the 80’s and 90’s. Catherine’s blog triggered things back and it peaked my interest again . Then I ran across Helen Dagners vlog. I started to piece things together and it brought back things Johnny told us. I thought he was talking about Haystack. Then a few months back , Catherine posted a blog on JOHNNYS FOIA report on Paul Johnson. Needless to say , I WAS SHOCKED. It was the only real information that I’ve seen from Johnny and they his suspect wasn’t Hastings , but it was Johnson. I’m a little puzzled why Johnny didn’t pursue this like he said he was going to do. He made it sound like he wasn’t going to stop until he got the guy.

                    6. This must be the suspect my Dad mentioned to me (not by name), years ago. Said he went to Brother Rice and that the parents would not help police at all and would not tell the cops when they were vacationing/gone from the area. I remember saying “you’re kidding, right?” and he shook his head and said “no.” The parents of this sick SOB wouldn’t confirm or deny whether they were out of town during the relevant time periods. Too much work, I guess. “Prove it, if you can.” You never know, old man. You never know.

                    7. Wow, just wow! Too difficult for investigators to investigate travel records. Task Force must have had a 3 hour lunch scheduled that day. I’ll just finish with what Detective Taylor wrote in the document.

                      “During my 25 years on the Sheriff’s Department, I had 17 years in investigations. I have never felt more certain of any case, than I am of this one”.

                    8. Well the Sheriff’s office (Johannes Spreen) did not play well with the Task Force in 1977. I’ll post more information in another reply. You may have already read it before.

                      In the meantime, you should re-connect with Taylor’s son, and get permission to find his personal notes on the OCCK case. Some things sometimes never make it into the “official” record, or the “official” record is modified.

                    9. In the summer of 1977, Oakland County Sheriff Johannes Spreen gave a speech about the OCCK investigation to the Southern Police Retraining Conference in Atlanta, Georgia. Spreen had been a critic of the police work on the OCCK from the outset and was an advocate of a single county police department, rather than individual city police departments. The speech was released to the press and was covered by The Detroit News and the Detroit Free Press on August 2, 1977. The task force apparently refused comment, so what follows are basically unchallenged excerpts from Spreen’s speech.

                      From The Detroit News:

                      “Fragmentation of police agencies made ‘a vivid horror story in the investigation of the child murders in Oakland County,’ Sheriff Johannes F. Spreen has charged. . . . ‘I want to talk to you about the problems we encountered, the shortcomings of our solutions and how we should plan for future occurences,’ he told the conference. ‘I must tell you from the outset that the events will sadden you as parents, and infuriate you as professional police officers.'”

                      Spreen’s comments about Mark Stebbin’s case: “‘Although the State Police maintain two relatively close crime labs and the Oakland County Sheriff’s Department also has an excellent crime lab available, none were called to process the scene. By the time the investigator from the Oakland County Medical Examiner’s Office had arrived, the body had been removed to the Southfield Police Department. When the body finally arrived at the morgue, it was devoid of all clothes. . . . No one really knows what might have been found at the scene had proper crime scene procedures been followed and a crime lab present.'”

                      The Troy Police failed to call a crime lab to process the scene where the body of Jill Robinson was found. “‘Noting the similarities in the two cases, it was suggested that a coordinated effort involving the State Police, Sheriff’s Department and the local authorities involved be implemented in an attempt to solve the crimes,’ Spreen said. ‘The suggestion was submitted to the local agencies by the State Police, and the offer was declined.'”

                      “Berkley police refused the offer of assistance of the State Police and Sheriff’s Department after the dissapearence [sic] of 10-year-old Kristine Mihelich of Berkley and only after her body was found in Franklin . . . did the Franklin chief turn the investigation over to the state police, Spreen said.”

                      The News reported that according to Spreen, “[t]hat afternoon, 30 investigators committed themselves to find the murderer of Kristine Mihelich” and “[t]he Oakland County Task Force was implemented. The work of the task force was hampered from the start by many problems. It was discovered that one jurisdiction charged with the investigation had virtually no report and in another jurisdiction, evidence had been misplaced and mishandled. The investigative team was forced to investigate one of the slayings from the very beginning. Another agency was reluctant to submit their report to the task force.”

                      Discussing the murder of Tim King, Spreen “criticized the task force for allowing 300 tri-county investigators to flood the area [where the body was dropped off].” The Detroit Free Press quoted Spreen as saying “[d]uring the King homicide (March 1977) numerous bits of information were lost forever due to inadequate reporting procedures and unfamiliarity with the case.”

                      The News article went on to explain that with “posted rewards totaling $70,000, Spreen said, people began ‘to use the case as a lottery. Parents turned in sons, brothers turned in brothers, and church members turned in their pastors. To date [August 2, 1977] the task force has 12,000 tips on suspects, with 5,500 closed and over 6,000 have not been checked.'” Spreen went on to state that “‘Some departments were virtually using the task force as a training experience for their personnel. Chiefs were committing rookie detectives and patrol officers to investigate the homicides and were rotating their personnel periodically to allow everyone to participate in the investigation.'”

                      The Free press article quoted Spreen describing the major problem “‘initially was a lack of coordination between the agencies involved. Information was not shared, offers of assistance (from other police agencies) were refused, each investigator jealously guarded the identity of his suspects in order to be the one to crack the case.'”

                    10. From the FOIA on Johnson:
                      Attended Holy Name Grade School, then 9th and 10th grade at Brother Rice (1970 &1971), and 11th and 12th grade at Seaholm (1972 & 1973).

                      Tip 5209TK was given by Matt Welch at the Eton Ice Arena.

                      Wasn’t the some information about JH frequenting an ice arena. May have read this in a Helen post.

                    11. My brother played hockey at that ice arena, which was not far from our house. I will make a separate post and segregate out the FOIA documents on PAUL DAVID JOHNSON (DOB 12-31-54), PARENTS ELIZABETH ANN JOHNSON AND JAMES L. JOHNSON (parents lived in Troy and Rochester Hills).

                    12. You read my mind. I was going to ask if that was the main ice arena where Tim and his friends played/learned hockey.

                      So the tip on PJ came from someone at the Eton Ice Arena and occurred Saturday 3/26/77 at 8:39 PM. Subject was a look-alike of the composite. Tip assigned to Ferndale PD.

                      Task force indicates it as a low priority tip (for someone that looked like the composite). Good job guys.

                      Suspect cleared because he was working at a TV repair shop that kept no employment records. Well done investigators. Give yourself a raise for clearing this tip before you finished your first doughnut.

                    13. I haven’t seen one goddamn tip above “medium,” and half the time that word was crossed out and “low” added.

            2. JN,

              You misunderstood me:

              We agree that Hastings might have been the creep seen by Polly Coltman. And we agree that her creep (possibly Hastings) at 4 in the afternoon was very likely one of the two men in the Hunter Maple parking lot later after 8 pm.

              Further, as you may know, I have long argued that Busch’s appearance precluded him as the man seen talking to Tim in the parking lot. (There is no known picture of an adult Chris Busch in which he is not sporting a shaggy beard.)

              My main point was something else: whoever those two men were in that parking lot after 8pm on a dark Wednesday night in mid March, they were not there because they had continuously loitered in the immediate vicinity for over four hours, hoping a lone kid would turn up.

              Those two men were there in that parking lot because they had JUST SEEN Tim scoot by.

              They saw him from a window of a house right there, either on Yorkshire or, more probably, on Knox.

              Those two men either lived in or were visiting a house that night right there on one of those two blocks.

              To follow up on my own long-held theory (which Juan K has expanded), if Busch received a contract from the unknown client to secure a Birmingham kid, then (Hastings and/or Sloan McKinney?) the procurer team were assigned by Busch.
              The two men in the parking lot probably didn’t even know precisely for whom they were working.

              Their ham-handed “scouting/hunting” at 4 pm was so clumsy that Polly Coltman noted it. Her creep was clearly on a mission that afternoon. Poppleton Park, Adams School playground and the Hunter Maple Pharmacy are all within 250 yards of each other. Yet the creep failed – no kids were taken that afternoon.

              Her creep was hanging around there in that neighborhood and yet was not immediately recognizable to anyone as a local weird, undoubtedly because he did not actually live there. But later that night, her creep and his buddy were visiting someone else in a house right there on Knox/Yorkshire when Tim went past them.

              1. I guess I did misunderstood what you were saying. I’m not sure exactly how Haystack and McNamee grabbed Tim. I don’t know if they were waiting at a house or they went home at Haytscks Tuckahoe house and came back . Which is very well possible considering he only lived 3 miles from Hunter Maple.
                I agree with what Catherine was saying that Hastings needs to be interrogated to the limit. He needs to be dealt with. Either cleared or brought to a grand jury. As of today there’s no fucking way that goofy mother fer is cleared. Then say hypothetically speaking he’s found innocent, then you key in on Johnson. Both fit the composites, both have admitted to the crimes, both have mental health issues, both were society rejects. Anyways , that’s how I see it.

                1. McNamee was a cop for Bloomfield Village – his main beat was around Covington Jr. High. Hastings lived in Bloomfield Village. If they were looking for a kid at random to grab, it would have been much more likely at Mills Pharmacy on the intersection of Maple and Chesterfield in B.V. Mills was about three miles west of the Hunter Maple. Mills was less than a mile from Hastings’ house. Mills was about one mile from Covington, and maybe a half mile from Seaholm High School.

                  I can attest personally that dozens of kids every day in the 1970’s (I was one of them) would go to Mills for candy. Mills was only a few hundred yards south of Quarton Elementary school. Mills was the B.V. equivalent of the Hunter Maple Pharmacy in downtown Birmingham.

                  If it was indeed Hastings (and McNamee?) hanging around near Poppleton Park, Adams School and the Hunter Maple Pharmacy in Birmingham – and it might have been them – then they were not in the closest, most obvious hunting ground. I believe they were there because they had an assignment from Busch, one which Polly Coltman’s creep had been trying to fulfill earlier in the afternoon. He failed.

                  I realize several posters here don’t accept my basic contention that the two men in the H.M. parking lot after 8 pm were there because of a spontaneous sighting of Tim moments earlier. I am certain that they were in a house with a sightline to the sidewalks on either Yorkshire or Knox. I find it extremely unlikely that they circled that neighborhood for four hours, long after dark on a Wednesday night, hoping a lone kid would show up. Further, I find it extremely unlikely that they were surveilling the King house for hours that night, hoping that Tim would head out after 8 on his own.

                  No, I think it much more likely that the “base” for the men who grabbed Tim was a house on either Yorkshire or Knox.

                  In any event, we all agree that the MSP follow-up to the Hastings interview in Georgia was a travesty. We all agree that Hastings should still be subject to serious interrogation. We all agree that it is plausible he was involved, somehow.

                  Finally, to answer Cathy’s basic question (“Why wasn’t the case solved?”) the answer is obvious: it was never intended to be solved. No real investigation was ever been done on it by the MSP, the task force, or the FBI.

                  Cory Williams, singlehandedly, provided far more real detective work on the case than any organized effort before or since.

                  Why wasn’t it investigated?

                  Because a real investigation would threaten very powerful entrenched interests, including law enforcement at the highest levels.

          2. This all could be explained as easily as someone may have continued to circle the pharmacy, the park and maybe even Tim’s home continuously until late in the evening. What is so hard to believe about that? Maybe these criminals scout for hours on end. I very highly doubt it’s a quick snatch and grab situation like has been suggested, but it’s hard to say.

            As far as Polly running into Haystack discussion. Judi and I could never conclude that for sure. When asked about the OCCK sketches she stated who she saw did not have the sideburns (chops) like the sketches imply. Does that say he looked like the sketch otherwise? Hard to say.

            1. I personally don’t think the sideburns lamb chops are significant. I think the dark, shag cut hood more significance. I feel the sports jacket, the 5’10 170lbs . Athletically built hold more ground. You could say someone with 1/2 inch side burns have lamb chops . It looks like Hastings has lamb chops in his 77 photo; however, he doesn’t . I’m looking deep into his eyes. Dark , like the composites. Ya I’ve talked to Judi about the samething and we don’t know for sure, but whoever Polly ran into and that same very person was circling that neighborhood a few hours later, the probability that it’s the same person seen talking to Tim later is astronomical. 90%

          1. The fact that he bought 930 Knox in the ’90’s doesn’t mean he wasn’t involved in some way. One can think of several potential reasons he later bought a house on that block, especially an undistinguished, although new, house on a previously empty lot on a dark block. Enough said.

            We’ve looked and, so far, been unable to find the location of the house he lived in in Birmingham in the ’70’s and ’80’s. We know he did live there, or in a nearby community that someone referred to as Birmingham. No need to rehash that support now.

            1. Yes I don’t want to re-hash anything. However he would have had his primary residence in the community he was representing (70’s and 90’s). But he could have had a secondary residence like Tazelaar (Royal Oak and Detroit or Highland Park).

              1. Yes, we know what his residences of record were. And we have seen photos of the interior of the house that he lived in in the 70′ & 80’s. Those photos do not match the residences of record. A friend of his who took care of it for him while he was in Lansing referred to it as being in Birmingham.

                That house was not on Knox or Yorkshire. It is possible it was in the Poppleton Park neighborhood but if it was, it is no longer there.

                1. It does appear Faxon had a house in Birmingham (his “art house” as depicted in those photos). He no doubt had multiple residences, as he had to have certain addresses in order to get elected and re-elected from districts he could win in. Faxon was friends with Kent Shultz and Josiah Tazelaar, both convicted pedophiles. Tazelaar’s brother, Willem Tazelaar, has lived for 50-plus years in a Birmingham home, not 2 miles from our house. John McKinney, while a resident of Clawson, had his art gallery in Birmingham, walking distance from our house, and was silent partners with our neighbors across the street from us. Everell E. Fisher, Jr. had his weird art gallery/shop in downtown Birmingham as well. Chris Busch and John Hastings both lived down the road (3-4 miles?) in Bloomfield Village which, back in the 1970s actually had a Birmingham mailing address. And Chris Busch’s brother Charles Busch lived right across the street from Poppleton Park, even closer to our home. And Ted Lamborgine has credibly been seen eating at Monahan’s Beef Buffet in 1976 or 1977. That restaurant was a few doors down from the pharmacy and shared the same parking lot. That is a lot of creeps circulating in Birmingham, Michigan. Attorney John Agnew, lived in Royal Oak and police notes indicate he knew pedophile David Norberg and was friends with convicted pedophile Larry Smith. No wonder Brooksie didn’t want any more digging into the OCCK files. One of his “perfect” suburbs was filled with the worst kind of criminals.

                  1. And of course, that piece of garbage, pedophile cop Richard McNamee, who lived streets away from Hastings and Busch. Officer Friendly, who “liked” all the kids in Bloomfield Village.

                    1. Indeed. Keep forgetting about that convicted child porn user. It’s hard to keep track of them all, even in such a small area.

                  2. I never realized Lamborgine had at times been seen eating at Monahan’s Beef Buffet. As you say, that’s right in the same parking lot as the pharmacy.
                    Also, I never knew that only the Buffet, Chatham’s and the pharmacy were the only places open in that string of businesses on the evening of 3/16/77.

                    1. Monahans had the same backdoor entrance as HM Pharm and it was used often. I honestly don’t recall ever entering any of those businesses through the front. As for what was open, the other business was an office supply and then the furniture store that anchored the other end – stands to reason they were closed at that time of night. Lamborghine eating at Monahan’s was new to me as well.

                    2. Some of those pieces of shit could have been eating dinner there that night after striking out in their child poaching earlier in the day/evening.

                    3. Thanks. I did not know Monahan’s had the same backdoor entrance as HM Pharmacy.

                      I got the information about only 3 businesses open that night from a 3/18/77 newspaper article. The point of the article was that it was a less crowded that night (in the back lot) than usual.

  15. Is there evidence that Vince Gunnels knew about North Fox Island? How old was he in 1977 & 1978. Was he “phasing out”? Were the murders dictated by person in power to ensure there would be no blabbing? The research we have on pedophile rings (by Center for Missing and Exploited Children) describes different scenarios that go down when victims “age out.” Being that Gunnels was a minor, are his examinations / records sealed from the public? Where are all the North Fox Island victims? Why haven’t they come forward?

  16. What is the exact timeline? When was Tim with his friends including Polly’s son earlier in the day? Where were they hanging out? One possibility is that the OCCK scouting team was looking for Tim and associate friends early with no luck when they ran into Polly at pharmacy. From there they searched from the pharmacy, Poppleton park, and Polly’s neighborhood (Basically Tim’s hangouts?) around 4:00 PM? Perhaps later in the day they found Tim and his friends together as a group somewhere and waited until they broke up and as they scattered apart as they couldn’t keep up with all of them being on foot going home. Maybe they made their last rounds and found Tim later in evening. How long was Tim home between his friends get-together and before he went to the pharmacy? When it comes to speculation, it’s so easy to go so many directions with this. How does one conclude a suspect by their home at a convenient location along Tim’s path to the pharmacy? And how does that explain the other three OCCK victims?

    Face it. Haystack is still a suspect whether you like it or not.

  17. I may be wrong but I don’t know that I’m convinced there was scouting done. There was no way to know any of the four kids would be where they were, except maybe Mark if the killer was at the American Legion hall that day. There weren’t cell phones so communication between “stalkers”, so they would have to communicate by CB or something if it was a group effort. These bastards do seem bold but sounds like Hunter Maple was pretty busy. Maybe one of them talked to Tim at HM and followed him home and picked him up on the dark street. Who knows how many nights they camped out at HM and Tim unfortunately came along that awful night.

    1. Chris spots Kristine ,she hangs out at Hartfields.He gets Vince to approach her ,he was cute back then .Vince says a foxy girl can I get your phone # ? Flattered but afraid of her mom says no give me yours .A few days pass Vince wants her to slip out and meet him.Kristine does that ,but the abductors are nervous she will use the cut thru at hartfields to go back home .They call Jim Cox ,he waits in parking lot at 7-11 ,calls Kristine over to the car ,she gets in.He tells her how it’s important that she cross at the light (TYLER & 12 mile) or he will tell her mom. Car is waiting in alley off of Tyler ,pulls across side walk opens door and takes her.

    2. Yeah, I agree that it seems unlikely that there was “scouting” (looking for one specific kid).

      Instead, Polly Coltman’s statement indicates there was “hunting” going on, at least on the afternoon before Tim’s abduction.

      Was Jill Robinson specifically “scouted”?

      Impossible. Instead it’s certain that a team spotted her alone on her bike in the dark going north somewhere between her mother’s Royal Oak house and her father’s Birmingham house. Yet until Jill got into the petty argument with her mother, Jill wasn’t going anywhere. No one could have known in advance that she would be out riding her bike after dark, alone.

      (Cathy, where exactly did Tom Robinson live?)

      To get Jill off her bike and into a van would require at least two men.
      Cathy wrote in a blog post in February of 2013 that the Flint P.D. had impounded Greg Greene’s van, and in it were two pairs of underwear, belonging to young girls.

      As we know, the Flint P.D. did not ask Greene about either Jill Robinson or Kristine Mihelich. Greg Greene was a sadistic monster, exactly the kind of monster who would torture a 12-year old girl by forcing her to reveal her worst fear. According to Robinson’s sister, Jill was deathly afraid of being shot in the face.
      Her fate was no coincidence, no matter what Lt. Jack Kalbfleisch later theorized.

      Was Mark Stebbins “scouted”?

      Only if someone at the VFW hall knew in advance that Ruth Stebbins was planning to bring her sons to the hall, something for which there is zero evidence.

      No, Mark’s abduction was, along with Jill and (I think) Tim, one of happenstance. Someone at the hall learned that Mark was leaving on his own and intercepted him, probably right outside the back door of the hall, in the parking lot. (Probably with an offer of a ride home.)
      Not one witness ever saw Mark anywhere on any street between the hall on Livernois and his house on Saratoga. He had to cross Woodward Avenue at some point, past numerous businesses and houses, but not one witness ever saw him anywhere.
      Therefore, he never left the back of the hall on foot.

      Was Kristine specifically “scouted” in advance?

      I doubt it. While it’s theoretically possible some male lure was used to entice her to walk up to the 7-11 on that Sunday afternoon, that seems highly unlikely. Her mother believed Kristine when she said she wanted to buy a fan magazine, and we know from the 7-11 clerk, that’s exactly what Kristine did do. The only known 7-11 witness implied that a police officer seemed to interact somehow with Kristine in some way. Did she really follow him into his car? Maybe. (Ray Anger’s vehement reaction makes it likely.)

      We know she got into someone’s vehicle because no one saw her walking back home on the streets.
      No, once again I think her abduction, like all the others, was one of happenstance.

      Four unaccompanied minors crossed paths some members of the ring in Oakland County, members who were ready to strike at a moment’s notice.

      The ring had several participants, and they were in prime locations at the right times, hunting.

  18. I think all of this speculation, while good because it keeps the conversation going, is a case of not seeing the forest for the trees. Were these kids random snatch and grabs? Where they menu items being scouted to fill an order for a wealthy pedophile? Did the suspect in the sketch have mutton chops? Was he wearing a wig? Who looks more like the sketch, Hastings or Busch or Green? All of that misses the bigger point that Cathy pointed out above: Why, with all of these suspects, has this case remained “unsolved”? Every time a softball suspect is lobbed in law enforcement’s direction, they drop it. THUD. How difficult would it be, really, to talk to Duncan about his memories of John Hastings and the polygraph? Professional amnesia, you say? Do you really not recall anything about interviewing and testing a guy in relation to one of the biggest child murder investigations in the country? Ok, perhaps, but isn’t it worth the effort? And then, while you are there, pull Hastings in again? If it isn’t worth it, explain that to the victims’ families. That one is the easiest place to start. So, the question really is why not?

    1. And does he not remember a conversation with Garry Gray, wherein he explains the plan in Georgia to hold Hastings for Michigan and Gray tells him “no thanks”?? That conversation in itself had to be memorable. But these law enforcement types and polygraphers seem to have very short memories. So much going on all the time, I guess, that nothing makes an impression.

      1. I would be real curious how long after that day did Gary Gray retire?

          1. Too much paperwork involved with Hastings. Too much repercussion especially after telling everyone above him, below him, peers, and the public that there was ‘nothing’ to Helen’s story all that time. On top of the fact of taking Cory off the task force over bitter argument over Helen around that same time on the way down there. Plus so close to retirement (maybe days or weeks?) who would want to get involved with that and face all of that music?

      2. Gray blatantly disregarding the polygraph results and LBP letting Busch off the hook are two of the worst miscarriages of justice I’ve seen. What a couple of sociopaths.

    2. As most definitely the WHY is very important Judi , but I still want the big PRIZE. I haven’t given up on the prize at hand. By God let me tell you this. IF it was one of my family members. Hastings and I would have gone for a drive . I would be the male version of Helen, but a more persuasive Helen. The bottom line is that this case , the families and the community deserve justice . Figuring out WHY there was political corruption doesn’t give any justice. I want someone’s balls to hang. Someone needs to pay. There’s many cold case cases that have been getting solved. I don’t see why this one can’t as well.

    3. I enjoy your comments. Always the voice of reason. You and Cathy are correct. In the Oakland County investigation, the next logical step is always not taken. Or a tip is closed too soon with little investigation. Then many tips get deleted.

      And when Wayne County actually did an investigation, it was fine until it went in a different direction.

  19. oh wow, there’s a lot of overly imaginative commentary here! I am the author of the theory, Juan Kairos, a fan of true crimes and cold case investigations. I was born in October 1973, in Canary Islands, Spain, and although I love the United States, I have never been there (well, yes, only in my imagination). I was only 5 years old when OCCK occurred. I have a picture of myself as a child looking like Tim King and I’d like to send it to Cathy. No, for God’s sake, I’m not a repentant American connected to the case. I thank Cathy for publishing my theory, based on pure intuition, for the data I have read in this blog and for my own experience in reading books related to this topic. I also thank those who have found interesting things in my theory. The truth is one, nothing more, and the families of these children deserve their rest, especially the late father of Cathy and Tim. God bless you.

    1. Greetings Juan. Thanks for responding. You sure have gotten the best of us and in some cases the worst of us with your writing. Your investigation into this case from Spain is more than what has been done in here Michigan for a good many years. Which kind of speaks for itself, I guess you could say.

      1. No problem, I understand everything and that each person has their opinion. What is funny and unusual is the conspiracy created as a result of my theory, to the point that I am confused with John Hastings. OMG, this is all crazy, but I’m cool with that. Regarding this last name, in my theory I discarded it because I have not read much about it, but seeing the comments, it is possible that it is as dirty and implied as the others. Greetings from Spain.

        1. Juan K. That makes perfect sense and you nailed it right on the head as it’s the very reason why no one is looking at Hastings. None of the OCCK documentaries cover him, two authors have discarded him as a suspect in their books. So it’s easy to dismiss him completely and most people do. In my opinion that is the very problem with this case. And it gets very complicated from there with people’s egos that are or were in control over some of these matters.

          1. That’s 💯 correct. The media and law enforcement have never considered Haystack as a viable suspect . Marney Keenen mentioned him in her book in a few sentences . The only person that brought him in the front and center was Helen. I pretty much get why he’s not a suspect in the medias eyes. He doesn’t have any prior convictions. There’s no molestation charges against him and that’s what they were looking at.

            1. Exactly, that’s it! While reading this blog and other sites, I read that he took advantage of Helen and gave her hope in exchange for some free lunches or something. My intuition told me: Ok, this is the typical funny opportunist and con artist. If Polly says that she saw Hastings that day in the pharmacy, it must be taken into account and vigilance, no one is above suspicion until proven otherwise. Finally, I have to say that this case, like so many others, has a fight against time. Many may have already died and we’ll never know the truth, but if it’s any consolation, keeping the memory of Tim and the other kids alive is reason enough to keep putting the puzzle together even though it shouldn’t be our job. As Shakespeare’s genius said: Something smells rotten (in this case)… let’s follow the smell until we reach its source. Someone will end up confessing because the things of the soul have invisible threads and it is a great mystery. I hope Gunnels gets his memory back and the weight of conscience hits him.

              1. Juan, just because the media hasn’t or law enforcement don’t recognize him as a legit suspect doesn’t mean he’s not one. Just because he didn’t have prior molestation charges against him doesn’t make him a viable suspect . YOU SEE CHICO, I feel it makes Haystack more of a suspect. Ted Bundy didnt have any prior charges against him , before he decided to kill 100 woman . How many 20 something yr old men have rap sheets. The answer you are looking for Juan is 0. As far as I’m concerned these senseless murders of 4 children was done by a sick, serial murderer. It stopped because the heat was on the nut case and then he decided to move out of state “ ATLANTA” . Then he got old. How many 50+!yr olds are capable of killing? Especially sissy Hastings. Until he’s exonerated, he’s still suspect #1.

                1. Right on JN. Just to add a little. We don’t know if Polly ran into Hastings all we know for sure is she very likely ran into someone possibly involved and a few hours earlier. There is much more to Hastings than getting a free lunch side of it. And plenty of it has already been discussed here and it not worth going over an already buried thread. I will say though there was no lunch involved with them the hour or so I witnessed their discussion. No food, just coffee and smoking at their table as we were in the smoking section. Many will write him off as someone just telling stories to Helen. The missing polygraph results and conclusions that mysteriously vanished seem to tell a different story and have that same smell you described and very strong at that.

                  1. Inquisitor, what I’m saying “ is IF It was Haystack that Polly ran into at 4:00pm at Hunter Maple”. The probability that IT was Hastings that was seen talking to Tim later is astronomical. I’ve tried and tried to figure out if it was him knocking Polly down , and if it’s ever verified that It Was him , we’ll then guess what? BINGO. That mother fucker is guilty. Granted there will be dumb fucks that say “ oh that doesn’t necessarily mean he came back later”. The fuck it doesn’t .

                  2. Listen here, YOU PUT HAYSTACK at Hunter Maple at 8 am , 10am , 1 pm , anytime on March 16, 1977. ITS HIM. There’s no coincidence that he just happens to be there. Anyone with 1/4 of a brain would know this .

                  3. I understand what you’re trying to tell me and I agree, but killing children without a murder motive is very rare. The sexual component is there, only in boys. I do not see a serial killer, this is more a reason for sexual predation, obsessive and selective. They cleaned their bodies, fed them well before killing them, because after all, this predator or predators, intended to “take care” of those poor children so that they would have confidence. If there is reason to single out Hastings, I’m glad, he shouldn’t get away with it, and honestly, it makes me sick to think that he’s guilty and still free. Hastings needs to be investigated beyond what has already been done, it is necessary, but I still think the OCCK crimes were perpetrated by a team of sick pedophile sons of bitc***, and Busch and his alleged suicide is the key. If Busch is finally proven clean, God forgive me (although it doesn’t matter, because this guy was a disgusting pedophile pig and piece of shit), something very strong and inexplicable constantly tells me that there was a typical clumsiness of a group here and not just one killer. Be that as it may, we will agree that everyone on this blog wants this embarrassing and botched case to be resolved sooner rather than later.

                    1. So are you basically telling me that the only ones involved with this crime are the ones that did the sexual act themselves? That seems like very shallow thinking to me. There could be others involved as well. Go look at what was printed in the FOIA papers related to the polygraph. Duncan’s conclusions that did remain in print seems very telling with no explanation from anyone. Cathy deserves an answer on what the hell does that mean. She’s been trying to find out for many years now.

                    2. My point and my last one here is that yes there are all of these pieces to the puzzle with nothing linking them. Someone needs to talk and it sounds like Hastings might have done that. With the MSP leaving what they did in the FOIA papers leaves way too many questions and sure seems to hint to a link to Busch and involvement with the murders. We must find out what the hell cause them to write those conclusions. I’m done here.

                    3. I agree with you Inquisitor. It’s narrow minded indeed. It’s quite puzzling that the girls weren’t molested at all. There’s still nothing positive that the boys were molested while they were alive . This is very very important. There’s no way that Busch, Greene, Sloan, Lamborghine would have not molested this kids while they were alive . This dictates on what investigators would be looking for. It’s changes the whole diameter of the case. For the record I’m not questioning anyone here. I very well could be wrong. It’s just my opinion

                    4. The state lab developed Y-str DNA from Kristine’s autopsy kit when they reran some of the evidence (prior to 2020, as it was reported in Marney’s book). That is MALE DNA. From a vaginal swab. Think about it.

                    5. I have the same data as any of you. I have put together my own puzzle, but I am missing many pieces and it is very difficult to get a complete picture of this case. That’s why I made a point of encouraging you to put forward your own speculations and theories. The reason I said I’m ruling out a one-person murder is because of the hairs found in Sloan’s car. However, this case is very cloudy, dense and dirty. I still think the Mark Stebbins drawing on the wall of Busch’s apartment is telltale evidence. It’s the most obvious thing I’ve seen in all this interesting research. He’s basically telling you: OCCK, oh yeah, here lies a son of a bitch who was involved and we shot him in the head. Inquisitor, JN, all your theories are fantastic, very believable. I am very attentive to the comments and I like to collect more information. I insist, without wishing to offend anyone, but here I think there are several people involved. Shelden was discovered early on in OCCK and there were a lot of high-profile pedophiles in that pedophile ring. I don’t rule out custom commissions by someone who didn’t give a shit about the lives of these children. This is the origin of my theory. 13 months separate two rapes of two boys, with subsequent murder. The two girls were not raped, but they were scrupulously cleaned like the other victims. The MO is equal to what links these 4 deaths to the same murderer. Remember that one of the girls was not properly dressed. This in my opinion reveals the total absence of female accomplices involved. Why take care of them that way? Why offer these children their favorite food if they were going to kill them anyway? A serial killer wouldn’t care. Somebody paid for these children and put the condition, perhaps, on his subordinate assassins, that he treat them well before killing them. Teamwork. I will be 100% wrong, I don’t know, I just go with my intuition. I understand that many of you, especially Cathy, are tired and with little hope, that a stage is coming to an end but we must continue no matter what the cost. I will continue to read them regularly. Thanks for your comments.

                    6. Juan, thank you for your observations. There comes a point in a mountain climb where it is safer to continue to the top than to turn back. That is where I am. People like Cory Williams, Marney Keenan and I have had to stay on these law enforcement types like flies on shit. This is an endurance event, filled with hacks who are cheaters. The truth, or some important part of it, will out. We hit a wall and have to reassess. But we are making a record. Everyone who aided and abetted these murderers will be outed. Endurance event. Those who have obstructed are weak in every respect. The truth will prevail.

                    7. Cathy, and that victory will be yours one day. The most powerful reason that encouraged me to write on your blog was the image of your father in the different documentaries and videos related to OCCK. Something pushed me to feel a very strong empathy (I am also the father of a 12-year-old boy) with Mr. Barry King, his daily struggle, his pain and his absolute dedication. Seeing his face I see a good soul, broken with pain. My amateur theory is useless, but I needed to contribute it because I see clear evidence of ‘attempted cover-up shit’ that would have removed your county court system. Think of only one thing: If after all these years you have not managed to advance in the investigation, it is because someone was in charge of hiding evidence at the time. Out of every 5 tests, we burn 4, so to speak. Try to talk to Bowman, Gunnels, ask them for one last breath, they don’t commit them legally. With Sloan it’s harder and it wouldn’t be dignified to ask this miserable scum for anything, but I think there’s a chance he’ll say something. Regarding Hastings, of course, you already have him on the task board as a suspect, but think that as is logical he prefers to live the rest of his life in freedom and will not say anything. Everything was hidden at the end of 1978, this is quite suggestive. If the investigation team was dissolved, it is because someone gave the order. What the hell did they see to close the case? Perhaps it was preferable to put the prestige of a prosecutor and the police before 4 murdered children and the pain of their families. It was the darkest time in the United States in relation to crimes and serial killers. Not far from your county, Gacy embarrassed the nation with thirty murders. Candyman in Dallas hit hard consciences in the west of the country. Michigan couldn’t afford for its OCCK killer to be not just a maniac, but a network of powerful people, including police officers. My God, that had to be covered up somehow. In the same way that a family hides its shame, a state can do the same. It’s just a thought, Cathy. I wish with all my strength that everything will be cleared up soon. I sketch a smile from your father from where he is, with a gesture of relief and peace. These 4 OCCK children and their families deserve it.

  20. So like …your not Francis Sheldens child from the hooker he married ?

  21. Has anyone ever considered the possibility that Vince Gunnels might have been one of the witnesses to the entire North Fox Island Ring? I wonder if some of the FOIA documents are omitted because of the minors involved. Do we have FOIA documents about the North Fox Island investigation?

    1. Gunnels might have been at North Fox Island in the summer of 1976, but there is no evidence of it.

      We do know that Chris Busch was there – the March 1977 articles from the Traverse City Record-Eagle named him as a photographer at the island!

      My general working theory has been for years (long before Juan K’s theory) that Busch “proved” his bona fides to the network with his photographic work for Selden in the summer of 1976 at North Fox Island. One of Selden’s associates/clients/friends then approached Busch with more “assignments” after Selden fled the USA in the fall of 1976.

      (Busch may well have “proved” himself in February of 1976 in whatever his role might have been with Mark Stebbins. Greg Green was involved with that, somehow. Could the two of them been freelancing? Could the Mark Stebbins ordeal/murder have been filmed and then sold to Selden’s sicko clients? The possibility is both horrifying and real.)

      Anyway, it was this Selden “associate” who had the money, power and prestige to later manipulate any real investigation.

      Simultaneously, Busch was recruited/forced by some level of law enforcement to become some kind of criminal informant.

      Busch’s information to his law enforcement handlers was confined to the North Fox Island aspects of his work, which explains why he was not arrested earlier for his photographs. But Busch was not telling law enforcement in early 1977 about whatever it was that guys like Greene, Sloan, Gunnels (Hastings? McNamee?) were doing, either on their own, or as part of the “assignment” from the Selden associate.

      The Green/Sloan/Gunnels/Hastings/McNamee/? level of the ring probably didn’t even know about Busch’s connections to either law enforcement or to the wealthy, powerful “client/s”.

    2. The only FOIA documents in the N. Fox Island case were obtained from the MSP. I posted them on my blog long ago. Google Fox Island and catherine broad blog. James Vincent Gunnels is not listed in those documents. The only redacted names appear to be of men who were “patrons” of Sheldon’s “boy’s nature camp.” You know, guys who were school principals and probation officers and “Big Brothers” and foster fathers of boys who were briefly interviewed and who expressed “shock” when they learned what old Shelden and his pals were really up to on that remote island. The MSP did not redact the name of one or more of the victims. But by god they redacted the names of these upstanding men who merely donated a little money for “the camp.” And, the FBI cannot respond to a FOIA request about Shelden/Fox Island or Chris Busch due to one of their infamous “catastrophic” facility floods. That was the company line in response to my dad and Marney Keenan’s FOIA request to that august agency.

      Gunnels is, however, a link between Flint and the Detroit pedophiles and that is established in the case notes of Cory Williams in the investigation of Lamborgine and Lawson. We know Vince was a neighbor of Busch’s nephews in Flint and at least one of the men who was victimized in Detroit as a kid names Vince Gunnels as being around that scene. The guy was both victim and lure. Was he ever at N. Fox Island? He will never tell the truth either way.

  22. Cathy , these inconsistencies are part of the biggest issues with the case . Spitz saying one thing , others saying another. We’re the girls molested , one says yes another says no. We’re the boys molested. One says yes another says no. It’s like growing up, the urban legend was that the kids were taken care of immaculately. We know now that’s not the case.

    1. ME Werner Spitz performed the autopsy on Tim because his body was found in Wayne County. Spitz did not evaluate the autopsies of the other three kids, performed by the Oakland County hack, ME Robert Sillery.

      Imagine if the Detroit-area media had taken this case seriously decades ago? They had excellent attorneys who could have easily won a FOIA case and had the “open case” bullshit rejected on its face. Five years into the investigation into the murder of Adam Walsh a Florida court told the cops “nice try” when they tried to pull that. If some of the blatant contradictions and lies in this case had been exposed earlier on, it might have made a difference. Instead, the Detroit-area media settled for disgusting and worthless “anniversary” pieces, as they continued to eat out of the hand of L. Brooks Patterson. Forty-some years later, when the only decent journalism was presented in The Detroit News (Marney Keenan) and the Detroit Free Press (David Ashenfelter), it got little traction and was subverted by another worthless prosecutor, Jessica Cooper and her toad, Paul Walton.

      Instead, it has been up to one family to obtain FOIA documents and try to piece this together somehow. Money, time and pain. These documents have been used by everyone who tries to evaluate this case from the outside.
      Because nobody on the inside will ever talk.
      Sworn to silence and dying off.

      Furthermore, the documents we have obtained are 1. just the tip of the iceberg, and 2. shine a light on the obvious–destroyed documents and the calculated refusal to take/keep notes (Cooper and Patterson) help forever obscure the truth.

      1. Hey Cathy, I’m very aware of Werner Spitz. I find it disturbing that on his Wikipedia there’s nothing mentioned on the OCCK case. Another media slap. I honestly figured with L Brooks , Cooper, Walton gone , I figured we might gain some ground. I figured that Nessel had some ethics. I’ve personally written to her. Of course of zero response . I’m wondering about Ms.McDonald . She did step up to the plate with the Oxford high school shootings. I still have hope Cathy. There’s still a few players that are alive that can and I’m confident will be dealt with. It’s just as I know you know, those players time is ticking on them. You are an amazing woman and I definitely admire you as I admired your father.

        1. JN Glad to see you’re trying to do things with this. I whole heartedly agree with you about Cathy and Mr. King as well. So many directions pulled on this and even the so called evidence seems to contradict with itself with every twisted turn. Always been so many people for so many years now trying to figure this thing out. Some are dime store analyst as this case always brought out the curiosity. So many twists and so many theories. Some sent right over the edge of reality. Trying to get Busch to match the description and sketch from the pharmacy is like turning water into wine. I don’t know if Hastings is the OCCK and I’ve been quite honest all along. Although I did hear him talk and go over some maps with Helen and although quite suspenseful at times, I couldn’t tell if it was for real mainly because of the content and of course the place that this occurred. I always drove Helen up the wall in following years as I was never all that sure that he did this or even on his own like Helen truly believed. However that polygraph from 2009 keeps me going with what came thru the FOIA papers and especially after my personal interactions with Gary Gray. There is something very off with that guy and it leaves me with very strong suspicions now that evidence was buried. I want to know the truth of that poly and where the chips fall is where they fall. I could careless about any future investigation of him unless it’s a follow up what is known from the previous poly. What spun those conclusions from 2009 is what I want to know.

          1. Well buddy, you just Summed it up. I agree with you on all fronts. I don’t care about any further investigation on Haystack until this 2009 polygraph is dealt with. I don’t know exactly what Hastings role was exactly . I just feel he was involved . What you heard plays huge on my decision. He’s either a psycho manipulative freak that shouldn’t be free or he’s a psycho child abductor or killer.

            1. All arguments against Haystack as a suspect or someone with intimate knowledge are empty until someone in LE answers for those missing files concerning the 2009 polygraphs of Hastings in Georgia. Only a person like Gray would make note of what Steve Duncan told him concerning this interview and the polygraphs of Haystack, tell no one (Cory Williams or the FBI (right, I know)) and go on his merry way.

      2. Even in Cory’s notes, there are more details available somewhere else. For instance, notes describing an interview may say, “See further details in FBI file”. This FBI file is probably long gone.

  23. FUCK YOU: Gretchen Whitmer

    FUCK YOU: Dana Nessel



    FUCK YOU : L. Brooks Patterson (I WILL PISS ON YOUR GRAVE)

    FUCK YOU: Jessica Cooper

    FUCK YOU: Paul Walton

    FUCK YOU: Richard Thompson

    FUCK YOU: Larry Wasser

    FUCK YOU: James Vincent Gunnels

    FUCK YOU: Ted Lamborgine

    FUCK YOU: Arch Sloan

    FUCK YOU: Gary Gray

    FUCK YOU: Robert Robertson


    AND A BIG FUCK YOU to all you police officers that have not shared the UNREDACTED Police reports with Cathy and her family. SHAME ON YOU!

    1. Bob Kenney

      You might want to add Chris Busch, Frank Shelden and Bobby Moore to your list.

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