Very interesting to say the least. I’m wondering if this is the same Johnny Taylor my family was friends with. I’m thinking it is considering I remember him mentioning that the suspect he thought was guilty mother worked at Beaumont hospital. Just like this Taylor mentioned. I can’t verify this because Johnny Taylor passed away a number of years ago. He retired to Arizona back in the late 90’s.
Ya , I was friends with his son David when I was a kid. Well I now know who Johnny was talking about when he mentioned to our family that he knew who the killer was. I seriously thought he was talking about John Hastings. He told us that he visited the guy in a mental institution. Now I know it was the old Clinton Valley. Now I would like to know if Doug Wilson could identify Paul Johnson? Thanks a lot for sending me JOHNNYS obituary. I didn’t realize that he was that young when he passed.
If Johnson wasn’t involved he was obsessed with the case. Very similar to John Hastings and what do you know, both from were Birmingham and attended Brother Rice. Hmmm…
I was thinking the same thing. If I remember what I read in previous documents, both had to leave Brother Rice for some reason, and both finished high school elsewhere.
Even more interesting is that one of Johnson’s later addresses was 10 doors down from Hastings sister in Southfield.
More coincidences. Isn’t that ironic that Johnson lived that close to Mary Hastings. The same sister that told authorities to PROVE IT. Not only did they live in the same area and went to the same high school, but there’s similar appearances and their personalities seem similar. Both recluses with mental issues. Could they have ran into each other at sister Mary’s?
I wish I could answer that without speculating. I still think you should look up the family of John Taylor and see if he had any personal notes or information that never made the files. Easier said than done. I know.
How difficult it would be as LE to try to sift through the ramblings of someone like Johnson. I remembered that someone had called your dad and I think it was believed to be Hastings, or am I misremembering? Or maybe the police had asked Hastings if he had called your dad.
I too found the Brother Rice connection interesting. I thought it was also asked if Johnson worked at Peabody’s – didn’t Busch work at Peabody’s at some point? I may be wrong, I have read so much information.
His story is the first one I have come across that would explain why the abductions were always in the winter. One of the things I find the most interesting is the Tempest, and that he worked not too far from Sloan at one point as well.
No worries, KP–you have a better read on these cases than the MSP. It’s easy to confuse the details especially if you look at all of them. Peabodys was basically across the street from Monahan’s which was a few doors down from Hunter-Maple.
As far as I can tell, Johnson still resides in the group home in Troy. He’s so much like Hastings in that he contradicts himself but he knows too fucking much and too many things line up for it to be just delusions or deliberate bullshit.
Hastings and Johnson remind me so much of each other that they even both went to Brother Rice. I have to admit that I am a little baffled right now. Considering these resent development s is the first I’ve ever heard of Johnson. I still wouldn’t discredit the issues with Hastings that have yet been addressed. The failed Poly. He’s not exonerated. It’s ironic that they both have admitted to the crimes at one point. They both could pass for the composites from Hunter Maple. The one thing with Johnson that stuck out with him that matched the composites was the wave to the back of his hair. It seemed to match one of the composites a lot ; however, Johnson doesn’t seem to have had an athletic build. Seemed quite thin to me. Much thinner than Hastings. I’m just grasping. That being said they are both alive. That doesn’t change the FACT that the amnesia scum bag Gunnels DNA was found on Kristine . He holds the CARDS.
This post may piss some people off but here goes anyway. I think it’s time.
Just to set you straight for once, I went by the name ‘Reasoning’ for many years and have used ‘Inquisitor’ on here as it best describes my position. So yes, I happened to be Alpena Witness as well and have been interacting with you on here all along. Sorry I kept this from you and others but I wanted to focus on recent developments involving JH rather than the distant past.
Although I can never make the claim that JH was involved for sure with absolute certainty, I strongly suspect that he was. The only thing I know for sure is what I heard at the Big Boy. Helen and I would eventually discuss things in detail years later and the name Johnson never came up. She was really after someone named Miller in Alpena though that seemed to be close associate with JH at the time. We could never figure out who that was though and maybe Helen didn’t even have the name correct to begin with.
Did JH just tell Helen some stories? Perhaps. One thing that struck me and has been difficult to describe was his intense emotions over the friendship he had with these children before he killed them. Hardly seems to match what we now know about the case now days. He did say though that an object was used on the boys after death and this was something I most definitely heard him say. But I guess those were the rumors floating around at the time in the 70s so perhaps he picked up on that.
It’s been frustrating as hell trying to continue on as a witness to something where Helen is known as a nut by so many. After I tried like hell to set the cops straight on matters and even eventually approached Barry with it. I also did talk to Marney briefly about it as well. She tracked me down after I talked to Barry at his presentation and caught me in the parking lot afterward. Unfortunately it seemed like we couldn’t get over the fact that Helen was a nut and couldn’t get beyond that with the discussion.
I do agree with you that the JH poly is very telling what came thru on that and requires further explanation by someone. Not bullshit but a legit explanation! Just to add something to that. Detective Gray was very difficult to talk to and I had no choice but over the phone at my place of work. He seemed to be an emotional basket case over Helen all ways around from the start. He wouldn’t accept anything I had to say about what I heard at the Big Boy. I just remember how I was so surprised how emotional he got over Helen. Didn’t seem professional at all so I believe he would bury anything and everything that would promote Helen even in the slightest way. So that could very well explain why there is no trace of the poly as far as data results, DVDs, missing text from FOIA, etc. etc.
I’m so deeply frustrated after all of these years and still no further details or explanation over the poly. I strongly believe if known, it would shed some light on this case. How on earth did they conclude that JH was involved with the murders someway and knew Chris Busch with so much certainty? Why do we have to keep asking these same damn questions year after year?
I have always believed you. Sorry about the delay in posting. One common theme in this god-forsaken investigation, one that overrides the failure of agencies to share information and work collaboratively and strategically and the failures too many to count, is that anyone who comes forward in this case gets fucked. Helen’s a nut; you misheard; my dad is a pathetic victim’s father who isn’t thinking straight, survivors of the child sex/porn ring (some of whom have directly mentioned Busch, Greene and Hastings, as well as H. Lee Busch) suffer from bullshit repressed memory syndrome, I am a strident bitch who hates cops. These fuckers want everything served up on a silver platter by people who are unpaid civilians without police or prosecutorial powers. Even then, no energy is spent on the substance of the information–it is all spent on killing the messenger.
Readers can say whatever they want about Helen and about the freak John Hastings. Where it stands now, that motherfucker failed a polygraph in this case, administered by an agency far more trustworthy than any Michigan polygrapher, AND NO ONE FOLLOWED UP. Cop ego and ass-covering strikes again. Utterly disgusting.
That is one of the most frustrating things to me too JN, Gunnels could shed so much light on all of it. Too bad he just gets to roam around with no consequences. I said it earlier, but the fact that everyone says that Johnson owned a blue Tempest is awfully damning as well.
Cathy, did they ever take DNA from Johnson? I don’t remember seeing it in any of the documents, but I could have missed it.
It’s been said before but it bears repeating — Gunnel’s DNA was on the body of a murder victim. Charge the MF for murder already and arrest him. He will talk. His memory might be bad but I am certain he remembers whatever he was part of or witness to and the things Busch and Greene did to him. Some things can’t be erased by decades of substance abuse.
Vince Gunnels was threatened soon after charges were filed against Chris Busch with Vince as the victim. It was an unknown caller who said “Don’t testify.” Said it twice. Vince told the police when they were interviewing him and then his mother. Who threatened him? Maybe the Busch family, but maybe someone else.
Gunnels is still walking the streets because he is a direct link to Busch and Kristine Mihelich. And L. Brooks Patterson, Dick Thompson and the MSP could not have that. It’s why John Hastings and Paul Johnson still walk free. Authorities will give you 20 reasons why Hastings, Gunnels and Johnson are not good suspects. They were not going to go near anyone from the Village hood or from Brother Rice. It’s why this mtDNA “match” was rejected and Cooper and Walton were all over the mtDNA “match” from Sloan’s car. Sloan’s car evidence is “high priority;” Johnson, Hastings, Gunnels–always “low priority.” Somebody from the Cass? They are all over it. Someone from or linked to the center of Oakland County? Nothing to see here.
Very well said Cathy. Inquisitor AKA Reasoning , thanks for clarifying things. As many of Helens stories were fabricated , you my friend witnessed JH admissions and people can’t say that was just another One of Helens lies. You were very important. It adds to Hastings as being my number 1 suspect . His admissions , him matching the Composites from Hunter Maple and his failed polygraph are things that can’t be ignored. That being said , there’s a new player in this case that came to light this week “ Paul Johnson” who a friend of our family “ detective Johnny Taylor’s “ suspect popped up. I have to admit he as well looks like the Composites from Hunter Maple. I always thought that Johnny was talking about John Hastings when he told our family about his suspect that was in a mental institution at the time. I have to admit, there are a lot of similarities between Hastings and Johnson. I know it’s like kicking a dog, but Hastings, Johnson, and Gunnels are alive and free.
JN;
I’ve been wanting you to know this for so long. Came so close so many times. What is so frustrating for me is that Helen is indeed a nut and has fabricated many things throughout all of this. The Big Boy lecture that JH gave her along with map drawings is the only thing that holds it together for me as it was indeed very real. The cops still treat it like Helen made it up. If the truth could ever be known about the poly, it would be enough for me to put this thing down and behind me for once.
I’ve always said “ what would you have to gain to lie about what you witnessed and heard”? Absolutely nothing. Could Hasting have just been lying because he’s mentally deranged? Sure. That doesn’t change the fact that Doug Wilson seen someone talking to Tim that looks more like Hastings than any other suspect. It doesn’t change the fact that he failed the polygraph. It doesn’t change the fact that he lived two streets down from a psychopathic pedoass. Here’s the thing, Cathy , the other families and the community may never totally get over what happened ; however, there’ still can be some closure and satisfaction in knowing that this case was solved and someone is paying for it. By God this fucking polygraph needs to be addressed . It can’t be continued to be blown off. Now we have this Paul Johnson that supposedly admitted to killing those kids to LT Johnny Taylor. Now I know for a fact , he’ wasn’t lying about that. So WE HAVE TWO SUSPECTS that have admitted to killing those kids.
Only 2? Seems like there were plenty more and some we will never know about. Very sick and disgusting that people confess and actually fantasize being a child killer. In JH case, it was map drawing along with tons of drama. Very hard to describe but sounded to me like he was really opening up and blowing off steam the way he talked about it and this was in front of an audience. Yes it may have all been for show. I always left that option out there but just wanted to make the point that this was not Helen but who she was with that did most of the talking and he sure did try to convince her that he was the killer. Absolutely.
Going through much (but not all) of this PJ documentation you posted, it seems most likely he is a paranoid schizophrenic with no connection to the case.
The cynic in me wonders if the police were so diligent in pursuing the PJ leads (interviewing family and friends over the course of years to ask details about his residences, cars, pets, employment, vacations, Christmas gatherings, etc.) is because (a) they knew he had nothing to do with the case and, moreover, (b) uncovering detail here would not reveal/expose any police misdeeds/incompetence in relation to a web of perpetrators operating throughout the Oakland County area for years. PJ was “safe” for a deep and detailed investigation — the cops could really get to the bottom of when he owned a cat and which aunt’s house the Christmas photos were taken at, without revealing a massive ring of child abuse that seemed to be operating quite unimpeded.
I feel Greg Green is likely to be involved in the OCCK in a direct way. He looks a lot like the composites, it’s indisputable he was a violent and dangerous sexual abuser (again and again), and a crime he committed in California matches the modus operandi of the OCCK.
In California, Green spent an extended period with the victim, nearly killed (Green himself was unsure) the victim, and then felt compelled to quickly drop him at a hospital to easily be found (and to call the hospital and inform them). If Green is involved in OCCK, it’s easy to see how it’s an escalation from his m.o. in California — he did murder the victims and no longer left them at a hospital but still had a strong compulsion for the matter to immediately be “out of his hands” and quickly addressed by the authorities by placing his victims in very public places right after they were killed. Perpetrators of this sort often stick to a longstanding m.o. and there is usually an escalation over time.
Cathy, thank you for all the documentation you’ve posted over the years and for bringing as much transparency as possible to this case.
As likely as Greene may have well been involved, it’s been proven that Greene was squeezing jail bars at the time Tim King was abducted . Therefore , the Composites were not of Greene.
I probably should’ve limited my comments in this thread to my impression of the PJ lead, and not distracted it with talk of GG. (Which I added because it was my fist comment on this site after reading on and off for several years, and the difference between PJ and GG as suspects seems extremely stark. Green was still alive in prison and there were countless boys in Flint he abused that the cops could’ve been interviewing, but across several years the cops are running around trying to figure out the last time PJ visited Aunt Grace’s cottage and owned a cat, etc. The investigation of PJ just seems bizarre and as if the cops are killing time.)
I know I’m preaching to the choir but I’m sure they avoided questioning Green’s victims because some if not all were victimized by Busch and the less his name comes up the more plausible deniability they have. Speaking of killing time, look at the former satanic priest (whose name escapes me) they were investigating, based on one not very credible tip from a teenager. The interviews are interesting but it’s pretty clear he has nothing to do with the OCCK but he was under surveillance for a while.
Greene could not be connected to Busch or Patterson would have had big trouble. This is why Greene was not bound over or even a witness in the Oakland County CSC case against Busch even after the victim TOLD THE COPS HE WAS ASSAULTED BY BUSCH IN A CAR DRIVEN BY GREENE.
MC Thanks for explaining. Cathy had done a great deal of research going thru the docs and concluded that Greene was in jail during her brother’s abduction. Although Greene may have been involved with the other abductions he sure wasn’t there during Tim’s which is where the main OCCK sketches were established by witnesses.
Marney does write on p. 99: “As to whether Greg Greene was actually in custody when Tim King went missing on March 19, 1977, there are conflicting accounts.”
Given Marney’s statement here — coupled with her research and credibility — I don’t think Greene being free can be dismissed out of hand. Marney goes on to explain some data points that support the idea he was free at the time. She doesn’t assign a probability of him being free, but between the lines it would seem to be 10% at the very least. (If there is a consensus view here regarding this, or if Cathy has come to a conclusion and would rather debates about Greene’s dates of incarceration not be dredged up, I was not aware and I apologize).
I’m not suggesting all the answers lie with Greene. I just think it’s a shame that the police weren’t investigating more likely suspects than PJ, and I point to Greene (there are several others) as perhaps the most obvious one they should’ve been pursuing and I wish throughout the 70s, 80s, and into the 90s they were questioning Greene’s friends from high school, asking cousins where he was Christmas 1976, digging extensively into his employment records and cat/dog history, and locating his 86 year old aunt in a rest home to see if any morsel of information could help solve the case. It may have done some good.
In addition to the composite, the hundreds of sexual assaults, the violence, and the m.o. displayed in the California attack, Greene clearly had the physicality and possessed/demonic temperament to abduct someone in seconds.
The descriptions of him stalking and waiting on sidewalk corners for kids in Flint are chilling. Greene must have seemed like Lucifer himself in the flesh to them. Greene is very lucky a “loose canon” father didn’t take a baseball bat to him and beat him within an inch of his life.
This is the first I’ve heard of PJ and frankly I’m shocked at the police’s thoroughness here and that it spans so many years. On the surface it almost seems like decent police work. Having some understanding of the larger investigation, it’s really anything but. I suspect this is all performative, and that their thinking boiled down to “This is going nowhere, but it’s fine because Busch was ‘suicided’ and Greene is in jail for life…”
This just goes to show how pathetic this case really is and continues to be. If something as simple as the fact if Greene was in jail or free during the time of Tim’s abduction cannot be established, there is just no hope. Marney does what she can as a researcher but she has to go by word of mouth of sources for some things. In the case of JH passing the polygraph in Georgia she was wrong and since then corrected herself in her zoom presentations on her book. Where she stands currently on the debate if Greene being in jail or not is unknown. It’s understood that there are so many that want Greene to be the one in the OCCK sketch that they tend to make it happen thru wishful thinking. I would like to see authors like Marney and Appelman show or explain that if Greene was there at the pharmacy that day, than how and more importantly who bailed him out of jail at that time? Who had the money? Surely there would be some type of record trace or something exactly showing that if it were the case.
Repeat something three times, and the brain registers it as “fact.” The blue Gremlin, Greene on the streets after his arrest in Flint, lone killer, kids’ clothing freakishly clean and no evidence whatsoever.
Greene was in jail every minute until he went to Jackson Prison. I can defend this conclusion many different ways and have. But to your point, I, the fact that 45 years later we are talking about composite drawings and car make, model colors in the biggest case in the country in 1977, the biggest and most heinous unsolved killings in Michigan history, after the state police blew through an incredible amount of money (unprecedented at the time), is ridiculous. THAT’S your case?!
Even if that sick fuck Greene got bailed for a few days, where are the records concerning this or regarding his re-arrest? How did he wind up back in jail and where is that documented? If you have read the documents concerning this predatory animal posing as a human being, you would know that even the most braindead cop/court employee would not have released this guy to the streets. His family had no money to spring this freak and his “friends” were all 12 and under.
Is it any surprise the record is seemingly “murky” on this point?! Now the Oakland County Prosecutor was in a hell of a spot. They had managed to sever any connections on paper between Busch and Greene that got created at Flint PD at the end of January 1977 but then another kid went missing! Oh fuck!! Are you SURE Greene was in jail?? He’s the bad guy here, right???
I’m not discussing this again. That fucker was in jail after his arrest on January 25, 1977 and then went directly to his “forever home” at Jackson in June of that year. No breaks to check out the kids at Hunter-Maple Pharmacy on March 16. Debate about the composite photo is worthless at this point.
I’m sorry Cathy that you have to continue to verify, explain The Greene situation. I understand your frustration because I’m frustrated when I see SOME REJECT mentioning that there’s some discrepancies concerning Greene being in jail during your brothers abduction. The Freak is rotting in hell. It’s mind boggling to me that people disregard the evidence at hand. We have a guy “ JH” that alive and well walking the streets of suburb Atlanta . There’s no denying that he looked like the composites to a t. We know he’s admitted to the murders. That alone proves he’s psychotic. Finally , we know he failed a polygraph miserably that’s yet to be addressed. By all means, it would be a relief to exonerate that goofball. As of today can clear him? Absolutely not.
… with a mystery polygraph taken some 13 years ago where two members of Michigan law enforcement argued over things on their way down there to Georgia and were never present when the polygraph actually occurred days later however with strong conclusions drawn that he was involved with the OCCK murders and even a recommendation for them to prepare paper work for a meat wagon to come and pick him up. Anyway we can get Heather to go dig up the truth over this matter and find out for real what happened?
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I can see how comments about Greene’s incarceration dates would be unwelcomed, to the extent they are used to absolve other suspects, some of whom are still living.
I don’t question that there is a whole web of sickos with strange and sinister connections to the OCCK case, and they deserve much greater scrutiny. Reading the bizarre PJ file just reminds me of that.
That’s a very good point: the authorities scrutinized Johnson, knowing that he was a liar with drug and mental issues. Johnson could not be connected to a larger pedophile ring (as far as we know), so he was “safe” to investigate thoroughly.
So they did investigate him.
Maybe he had something to do with it, but my bet is he didn’t. After all, he was a nobody – there was no larger, unseen force that held back an honest investigation and prosecution of him. If he really was the prime mover of the OCCK cases, I think he would have arrested in a heartbeat.
The case is unsolved 45 years later because very powerful people (including law enforcement on some level) were connected.
To start a new indention. The real truth behind this poly seems to be untouchable. The typical OCCK cover up along with a Helen related seasoning on it, makes for an extra tight lid. Where the truth will never be revealed!
To think we were that close to having Haystack in custody. It just blows my mind that the likes of Heather Catello have NEVER even mentioned John boy as a legit suspect. Why? Because there’s no actual physical evidence. I’m still waiting for Dana Nessel to acknowledge the case. Why hasn’t TV shows like Cold Justice looked into our case. I watch the God damn show and THE OCCK case is much more prominent than any case they have done.
Picture Detective Gray fighting with Cory over Helen Dagner with their flight down there described in Marney’s book. Gray responsible for taking Cory off the task force over those matters with talking to Helen. Then finding out from a professional polygrapher and his boss that this suspect (JH) is guilty of something with these murders and knows Chris Busch. And with very strong suggestions at that as absolutely.
Imagine that complete turn around from what they discussed from days earlier with their interview with JH when Detective Gray made a joke out of the whole thing. (FOIA docs) There is no damn way in hell Detective Gray was going to face up to the truth of it and instead bury it unknown to anyone. And it was buried for years until a little slipped thru the FOIA docs. This is way beyond outrageous to say the least!
Someone from the news most certainly could at least show the FOIA docs that are in question over this and asks MSP for an explanation and fill in some of the blanks that were redacted. No answer from them would sure raise more questions.
The best information about him is the “Binder 1 Final Seven Faces” file. It’s a lengthy file, but full of information. The interview with him is near the end.
I personally feel Polly Coltman ran into either Haystack or Paul Johnson. It’s said that Johnson was driving a tan LeMans back then. Polly “ if I’m not mistaken” said the car that was patrolling the neighborhood on the day Tim King was abducted was tan. It’s really a shame that Polly wasn’t able to see photos of suspects before she passed. Just seems like right when there’s a legit lead, something happens to detour the lead. I feel there are people that are alive that know who done these murders. With Johnson now dead, the Hurd keeps getting thinner. Time continues to tick
Johnson was institutionalized several times in the ‘70’s and also lived in a few halfway houses. According to one of the reports, he met a man who smothered a child in one of those places. Hard to say whether or not that really happened but regardless, was he possibly institutionalized with Haystack? Were they accomplices or did Johnson believe that he had done things Haystack told him about?
Very interesting to say the least. I’m wondering if this is the same Johnny Taylor my family was friends with. I’m thinking it is considering I remember him mentioning that the suspect he thought was guilty mother worked at Beaumont hospital. Just like this Taylor mentioned. I can’t verify this because Johnny Taylor passed away a number of years ago. He retired to Arizona back in the late 90’s.
I remember your comments about Taylor. This document helped me get up to speed with what you were saying. Sorry to hear that Taylor passed. https://tuscolatoday.com/2014/07/25/john-frederick-taylor-caro/
Ya , I was friends with his son David when I was a kid. Well I now know who Johnny was talking about when he mentioned to our family that he knew who the killer was. I seriously thought he was talking about John Hastings. He told us that he visited the guy in a mental institution. Now I know it was the old Clinton Valley. Now I would like to know if Doug Wilson could identify Paul Johnson? Thanks a lot for sending me JOHNNYS obituary. I didn’t realize that he was that young when he passed.
If Johnson wasn’t involved he was obsessed with the case. Very similar to John Hastings and what do you know, both from were Birmingham and attended Brother Rice. Hmmm…
Yes!!
I was thinking the same thing. If I remember what I read in previous documents, both had to leave Brother Rice for some reason, and both finished high school elsewhere.
Even more interesting is that one of Johnson’s later addresses was 10 doors down from Hastings sister in Southfield.
More coincidences. Isn’t that ironic that Johnson lived that close to Mary Hastings. The same sister that told authorities to PROVE IT. Not only did they live in the same area and went to the same high school, but there’s similar appearances and their personalities seem similar. Both recluses with mental issues. Could they have ran into each other at sister Mary’s?
I wish I could answer that without speculating. I still think you should look up the family of John Taylor and see if he had any personal notes or information that never made the files. Easier said than done. I know.
How difficult it would be as LE to try to sift through the ramblings of someone like Johnson. I remembered that someone had called your dad and I think it was believed to be Hastings, or am I misremembering? Or maybe the police had asked Hastings if he had called your dad.
I too found the Brother Rice connection interesting. I thought it was also asked if Johnson worked at Peabody’s – didn’t Busch work at Peabody’s at some point? I may be wrong, I have read so much information.
His story is the first one I have come across that would explain why the abductions were always in the winter. One of the things I find the most interesting is the Tempest, and that he worked not too far from Sloan at one point as well.
Correction, I don’t think Busch worked at Peabody’s- I was confusing things.
No worries, KP–you have a better read on these cases than the MSP. It’s easy to confuse the details especially if you look at all of them. Peabodys was basically across the street from Monahan’s which was a few doors down from Hunter-Maple.
As far as I can tell, Johnson still resides in the group home in Troy. He’s so much like Hastings in that he contradicts himself but he knows too fucking much and too many things line up for it to be just delusions or deliberate bullshit.
Hastings and Johnson remind me so much of each other that they even both went to Brother Rice. I have to admit that I am a little baffled right now. Considering these resent development s is the first I’ve ever heard of Johnson. I still wouldn’t discredit the issues with Hastings that have yet been addressed. The failed Poly. He’s not exonerated. It’s ironic that they both have admitted to the crimes at one point. They both could pass for the composites from Hunter Maple. The one thing with Johnson that stuck out with him that matched the composites was the wave to the back of his hair. It seemed to match one of the composites a lot ; however, Johnson doesn’t seem to have had an athletic build. Seemed quite thin to me. Much thinner than Hastings. I’m just grasping. That being said they are both alive. That doesn’t change the FACT that the amnesia scum bag Gunnels DNA was found on Kristine . He holds the CARDS.
JN
This post may piss some people off but here goes anyway. I think it’s time.
Just to set you straight for once, I went by the name ‘Reasoning’ for many years and have used ‘Inquisitor’ on here as it best describes my position. So yes, I happened to be Alpena Witness as well and have been interacting with you on here all along. Sorry I kept this from you and others but I wanted to focus on recent developments involving JH rather than the distant past.
Although I can never make the claim that JH was involved for sure with absolute certainty, I strongly suspect that he was. The only thing I know for sure is what I heard at the Big Boy. Helen and I would eventually discuss things in detail years later and the name Johnson never came up. She was really after someone named Miller in Alpena though that seemed to be close associate with JH at the time. We could never figure out who that was though and maybe Helen didn’t even have the name correct to begin with.
Did JH just tell Helen some stories? Perhaps. One thing that struck me and has been difficult to describe was his intense emotions over the friendship he had with these children before he killed them. Hardly seems to match what we now know about the case now days. He did say though that an object was used on the boys after death and this was something I most definitely heard him say. But I guess those were the rumors floating around at the time in the 70s so perhaps he picked up on that.
It’s been frustrating as hell trying to continue on as a witness to something where Helen is known as a nut by so many. After I tried like hell to set the cops straight on matters and even eventually approached Barry with it. I also did talk to Marney briefly about it as well. She tracked me down after I talked to Barry at his presentation and caught me in the parking lot afterward. Unfortunately it seemed like we couldn’t get over the fact that Helen was a nut and couldn’t get beyond that with the discussion.
I do agree with you that the JH poly is very telling what came thru on that and requires further explanation by someone. Not bullshit but a legit explanation! Just to add something to that. Detective Gray was very difficult to talk to and I had no choice but over the phone at my place of work. He seemed to be an emotional basket case over Helen all ways around from the start. He wouldn’t accept anything I had to say about what I heard at the Big Boy. I just remember how I was so surprised how emotional he got over Helen. Didn’t seem professional at all so I believe he would bury anything and everything that would promote Helen even in the slightest way. So that could very well explain why there is no trace of the poly as far as data results, DVDs, missing text from FOIA, etc. etc.
I’m so deeply frustrated after all of these years and still no further details or explanation over the poly. I strongly believe if known, it would shed some light on this case. How on earth did they conclude that JH was involved with the murders someway and knew Chris Busch with so much certainty? Why do we have to keep asking these same damn questions year after year?
I have always believed you. Sorry about the delay in posting. One common theme in this god-forsaken investigation, one that overrides the failure of agencies to share information and work collaboratively and strategically and the failures too many to count, is that anyone who comes forward in this case gets fucked. Helen’s a nut; you misheard; my dad is a pathetic victim’s father who isn’t thinking straight, survivors of the child sex/porn ring (some of whom have directly mentioned Busch, Greene and Hastings, as well as H. Lee Busch) suffer from bullshit repressed memory syndrome, I am a strident bitch who hates cops. These fuckers want everything served up on a silver platter by people who are unpaid civilians without police or prosecutorial powers. Even then, no energy is spent on the substance of the information–it is all spent on killing the messenger.
Readers can say whatever they want about Helen and about the freak John Hastings. Where it stands now, that motherfucker failed a polygraph in this case, administered by an agency far more trustworthy than any Michigan polygrapher, AND NO ONE FOLLOWED UP. Cop ego and ass-covering strikes again. Utterly disgusting.
Cathy;
Thanks.
That is one of the most frustrating things to me too JN, Gunnels could shed so much light on all of it. Too bad he just gets to roam around with no consequences. I said it earlier, but the fact that everyone says that Johnson owned a blue Tempest is awfully damning as well.
Cathy, did they ever take DNA from Johnson? I don’t remember seeing it in any of the documents, but I could have missed it.
Don’t think so!
It’s been said before but it bears repeating — Gunnel’s DNA was on the body of a murder victim. Charge the MF for murder already and arrest him. He will talk. His memory might be bad but I am certain he remembers whatever he was part of or witness to and the things Busch and Greene did to him. Some things can’t be erased by decades of substance abuse.
Vince Gunnels was threatened soon after charges were filed against Chris Busch with Vince as the victim. It was an unknown caller who said “Don’t testify.” Said it twice. Vince told the police when they were interviewing him and then his mother. Who threatened him? Maybe the Busch family, but maybe someone else.
Gunnels is still walking the streets because he is a direct link to Busch and Kristine Mihelich. And L. Brooks Patterson, Dick Thompson and the MSP could not have that. It’s why John Hastings and Paul Johnson still walk free. Authorities will give you 20 reasons why Hastings, Gunnels and Johnson are not good suspects. They were not going to go near anyone from the Village hood or from Brother Rice. It’s why this mtDNA “match” was rejected and Cooper and Walton were all over the mtDNA “match” from Sloan’s car. Sloan’s car evidence is “high priority;” Johnson, Hastings, Gunnels–always “low priority.” Somebody from the Cass? They are all over it. Someone from or linked to the center of Oakland County? Nothing to see here.
As for Gunnels, see again:
https://crimereads.com/on-the-trail-of-the-oakland-county-child-killer/.
Very well said Cathy. Inquisitor AKA Reasoning , thanks for clarifying things. As many of Helens stories were fabricated , you my friend witnessed JH admissions and people can’t say that was just another One of Helens lies. You were very important. It adds to Hastings as being my number 1 suspect . His admissions , him matching the Composites from Hunter Maple and his failed polygraph are things that can’t be ignored. That being said , there’s a new player in this case that came to light this week “ Paul Johnson” who a friend of our family “ detective Johnny Taylor’s “ suspect popped up. I have to admit he as well looks like the Composites from Hunter Maple. I always thought that Johnny was talking about John Hastings when he told our family about his suspect that was in a mental institution at the time. I have to admit, there are a lot of similarities between Hastings and Johnson. I know it’s like kicking a dog, but Hastings, Johnson, and Gunnels are alive and free.
JN;
I’ve been wanting you to know this for so long. Came so close so many times. What is so frustrating for me is that Helen is indeed a nut and has fabricated many things throughout all of this. The Big Boy lecture that JH gave her along with map drawings is the only thing that holds it together for me as it was indeed very real. The cops still treat it like Helen made it up. If the truth could ever be known about the poly, it would be enough for me to put this thing down and behind me for once.
I’ve always said “ what would you have to gain to lie about what you witnessed and heard”? Absolutely nothing. Could Hasting have just been lying because he’s mentally deranged? Sure. That doesn’t change the fact that Doug Wilson seen someone talking to Tim that looks more like Hastings than any other suspect. It doesn’t change the fact that he failed the polygraph. It doesn’t change the fact that he lived two streets down from a psychopathic pedoass. Here’s the thing, Cathy , the other families and the community may never totally get over what happened ; however, there’ still can be some closure and satisfaction in knowing that this case was solved and someone is paying for it. By God this fucking polygraph needs to be addressed . It can’t be continued to be blown off. Now we have this Paul Johnson that supposedly admitted to killing those kids to LT Johnny Taylor. Now I know for a fact , he’ wasn’t lying about that. So WE HAVE TWO SUSPECTS that have admitted to killing those kids.
Only 2? Seems like there were plenty more and some we will never know about. Very sick and disgusting that people confess and actually fantasize being a child killer. In JH case, it was map drawing along with tons of drama. Very hard to describe but sounded to me like he was really opening up and blowing off steam the way he talked about it and this was in front of an audience. Yes it may have all been for show. I always left that option out there but just wanted to make the point that this was not Helen but who she was with that did most of the talking and he sure did try to convince her that he was the killer. Absolutely.
Going through much (but not all) of this PJ documentation you posted, it seems most likely he is a paranoid schizophrenic with no connection to the case.
The cynic in me wonders if the police were so diligent in pursuing the PJ leads (interviewing family and friends over the course of years to ask details about his residences, cars, pets, employment, vacations, Christmas gatherings, etc.) is because (a) they knew he had nothing to do with the case and, moreover, (b) uncovering detail here would not reveal/expose any police misdeeds/incompetence in relation to a web of perpetrators operating throughout the Oakland County area for years. PJ was “safe” for a deep and detailed investigation — the cops could really get to the bottom of when he owned a cat and which aunt’s house the Christmas photos were taken at, without revealing a massive ring of child abuse that seemed to be operating quite unimpeded.
I feel Greg Green is likely to be involved in the OCCK in a direct way. He looks a lot like the composites, it’s indisputable he was a violent and dangerous sexual abuser (again and again), and a crime he committed in California matches the modus operandi of the OCCK.
In California, Green spent an extended period with the victim, nearly killed (Green himself was unsure) the victim, and then felt compelled to quickly drop him at a hospital to easily be found (and to call the hospital and inform them). If Green is involved in OCCK, it’s easy to see how it’s an escalation from his m.o. in California — he did murder the victims and no longer left them at a hospital but still had a strong compulsion for the matter to immediately be “out of his hands” and quickly addressed by the authorities by placing his victims in very public places right after they were killed. Perpetrators of this sort often stick to a longstanding m.o. and there is usually an escalation over time.
Cathy, thank you for all the documentation you’ve posted over the years and for bringing as much transparency as possible to this case.
As likely as Greene may have well been involved, it’s been proven that Greene was squeezing jail bars at the time Tim King was abducted . Therefore , the Composites were not of Greene.
Some people just don’t get it no matter how many times it’s explained to them. We can keep pretending that he was out of jail that day I guess.
I probably should’ve limited my comments in this thread to my impression of the PJ lead, and not distracted it with talk of GG. (Which I added because it was my fist comment on this site after reading on and off for several years, and the difference between PJ and GG as suspects seems extremely stark. Green was still alive in prison and there were countless boys in Flint he abused that the cops could’ve been interviewing, but across several years the cops are running around trying to figure out the last time PJ visited Aunt Grace’s cottage and owned a cat, etc. The investigation of PJ just seems bizarre and as if the cops are killing time.)
I know I’m preaching to the choir but I’m sure they avoided questioning Green’s victims because some if not all were victimized by Busch and the less his name comes up the more plausible deniability they have. Speaking of killing time, look at the former satanic priest (whose name escapes me) they were investigating, based on one not very credible tip from a teenager. The interviews are interesting but it’s pretty clear he has nothing to do with the OCCK but he was under surveillance for a while.
Greene could not be connected to Busch or Patterson would have had big trouble. This is why Greene was not bound over or even a witness in the Oakland County CSC case against Busch even after the victim TOLD THE COPS HE WAS ASSAULTED BY BUSCH IN A CAR DRIVEN BY GREENE.
MC Thanks for explaining. Cathy had done a great deal of research going thru the docs and concluded that Greene was in jail during her brother’s abduction. Although Greene may have been involved with the other abductions he sure wasn’t there during Tim’s which is where the main OCCK sketches were established by witnesses.
Marney does write on p. 99: “As to whether Greg Greene was actually in custody when Tim King went missing on March 19, 1977, there are conflicting accounts.”
Given Marney’s statement here — coupled with her research and credibility — I don’t think Greene being free can be dismissed out of hand. Marney goes on to explain some data points that support the idea he was free at the time. She doesn’t assign a probability of him being free, but between the lines it would seem to be 10% at the very least. (If there is a consensus view here regarding this, or if Cathy has come to a conclusion and would rather debates about Greene’s dates of incarceration not be dredged up, I was not aware and I apologize).
I’m not suggesting all the answers lie with Greene. I just think it’s a shame that the police weren’t investigating more likely suspects than PJ, and I point to Greene (there are several others) as perhaps the most obvious one they should’ve been pursuing and I wish throughout the 70s, 80s, and into the 90s they were questioning Greene’s friends from high school, asking cousins where he was Christmas 1976, digging extensively into his employment records and cat/dog history, and locating his 86 year old aunt in a rest home to see if any morsel of information could help solve the case. It may have done some good.
In addition to the composite, the hundreds of sexual assaults, the violence, and the m.o. displayed in the California attack, Greene clearly had the physicality and possessed/demonic temperament to abduct someone in seconds.
The descriptions of him stalking and waiting on sidewalk corners for kids in Flint are chilling. Greene must have seemed like Lucifer himself in the flesh to them. Greene is very lucky a “loose canon” father didn’t take a baseball bat to him and beat him within an inch of his life.
This is the first I’ve heard of PJ and frankly I’m shocked at the police’s thoroughness here and that it spans so many years. On the surface it almost seems like decent police work. Having some understanding of the larger investigation, it’s really anything but. I suspect this is all performative, and that their thinking boiled down to “This is going nowhere, but it’s fine because Busch was ‘suicided’ and Greene is in jail for life…”
MC;
This just goes to show how pathetic this case really is and continues to be. If something as simple as the fact if Greene was in jail or free during the time of Tim’s abduction cannot be established, there is just no hope. Marney does what she can as a researcher but she has to go by word of mouth of sources for some things. In the case of JH passing the polygraph in Georgia she was wrong and since then corrected herself in her zoom presentations on her book. Where she stands currently on the debate if Greene being in jail or not is unknown. It’s understood that there are so many that want Greene to be the one in the OCCK sketch that they tend to make it happen thru wishful thinking. I would like to see authors like Marney and Appelman show or explain that if Greene was there at the pharmacy that day, than how and more importantly who bailed him out of jail at that time? Who had the money? Surely there would be some type of record trace or something exactly showing that if it were the case.
Repeat something three times, and the brain registers it as “fact.” The blue Gremlin, Greene on the streets after his arrest in Flint, lone killer, kids’ clothing freakishly clean and no evidence whatsoever.
Greene was in jail every minute until he went to Jackson Prison. I can defend this conclusion many different ways and have. But to your point, I, the fact that 45 years later we are talking about composite drawings and car make, model colors in the biggest case in the country in 1977, the biggest and most heinous unsolved killings in Michigan history, after the state police blew through an incredible amount of money (unprecedented at the time), is ridiculous. THAT’S your case?!
Even if that sick fuck Greene got bailed for a few days, where are the records concerning this or regarding his re-arrest? How did he wind up back in jail and where is that documented? If you have read the documents concerning this predatory animal posing as a human being, you would know that even the most braindead cop/court employee would not have released this guy to the streets. His family had no money to spring this freak and his “friends” were all 12 and under.
Is it any surprise the record is seemingly “murky” on this point?! Now the Oakland County Prosecutor was in a hell of a spot. They had managed to sever any connections on paper between Busch and Greene that got created at Flint PD at the end of January 1977 but then another kid went missing! Oh fuck!! Are you SURE Greene was in jail?? He’s the bad guy here, right???
I’m not discussing this again. That fucker was in jail after his arrest on January 25, 1977 and then went directly to his “forever home” at Jackson in June of that year. No breaks to check out the kids at Hunter-Maple Pharmacy on March 16. Debate about the composite photo is worthless at this point.
I’m sorry Cathy that you have to continue to verify, explain The Greene situation. I understand your frustration because I’m frustrated when I see SOME REJECT mentioning that there’s some discrepancies concerning Greene being in jail during your brothers abduction. The Freak is rotting in hell. It’s mind boggling to me that people disregard the evidence at hand. We have a guy “ JH” that alive and well walking the streets of suburb Atlanta . There’s no denying that he looked like the composites to a t. We know he’s admitted to the murders. That alone proves he’s psychotic. Finally , we know he failed a polygraph miserably that’s yet to be addressed. By all means, it would be a relief to exonerate that goofball. As of today can clear him? Absolutely not.
… with a mystery polygraph taken some 13 years ago where two members of Michigan law enforcement argued over things on their way down there to Georgia and were never present when the polygraph actually occurred days later however with strong conclusions drawn that he was involved with the OCCK murders and even a recommendation for them to prepare paper work for a meat wagon to come and pick him up. Anyway we can get Heather to go dig up the truth over this matter and find out for real what happened?
I can see how comments about Greene’s incarceration dates would be unwelcomed, to the extent they are used to absolve other suspects, some of whom are still living.
I don’t question that there is a whole web of sickos with strange and sinister connections to the OCCK case, and they deserve much greater scrutiny. Reading the bizarre PJ file just reminds me of that.
MC,
That’s a very good point: the authorities scrutinized Johnson, knowing that he was a liar with drug and mental issues. Johnson could not be connected to a larger pedophile ring (as far as we know), so he was “safe” to investigate thoroughly.
So they did investigate him.
Maybe he had something to do with it, but my bet is he didn’t. After all, he was a nobody – there was no larger, unseen force that held back an honest investigation and prosecution of him. If he really was the prime mover of the OCCK cases, I think he would have arrested in a heartbeat.
The case is unsolved 45 years later because very powerful people (including law enforcement on some level) were connected.
To start a new indention. The real truth behind this poly seems to be untouchable. The typical OCCK cover up along with a Helen related seasoning on it, makes for an extra tight lid. Where the truth will never be revealed!
To think we were that close to having Haystack in custody. It just blows my mind that the likes of Heather Catello have NEVER even mentioned John boy as a legit suspect. Why? Because there’s no actual physical evidence. I’m still waiting for Dana Nessel to acknowledge the case. Why hasn’t TV shows like Cold Justice looked into our case. I watch the God damn show and THE OCCK case is much more prominent than any case they have done.
Picture Detective Gray fighting with Cory over Helen Dagner with their flight down there described in Marney’s book. Gray responsible for taking Cory off the task force over those matters with talking to Helen. Then finding out from a professional polygrapher and his boss that this suspect (JH) is guilty of something with these murders and knows Chris Busch. And with very strong suggestions at that as absolutely.
Imagine that complete turn around from what they discussed from days earlier with their interview with JH when Detective Gray made a joke out of the whole thing. (FOIA docs) There is no damn way in hell Detective Gray was going to face up to the truth of it and instead bury it unknown to anyone. And it was buried for years until a little slipped thru the FOIA docs. This is way beyond outrageous to say the least!
Someone from the news most certainly could at least show the FOIA docs that are in question over this and asks MSP for an explanation and fill in some of the blanks that were redacted. No answer from them would sure raise more questions.
Heather where are you?
Odd coincidence on date Rajesh “Roger” died. 40 years to the day….
https://www.mowells.com/obituaries/obituary-listings?obId=1582921
Forgive me, but who is that? I googled but didn’t turn up anything relevant to the OCCK.
The best information about him is the “Binder 1 Final Seven Faces” file. It’s a lengthy file, but full of information. The interview with him is near the end.
He was a suspect and friends of David Johnson. He died 40 years to the day Tim was found. They says of natural causes but who knows.
*Paul Johnson and I didn’t see anything about Roger being a suspect himself. The more I read about Johnson the more questions I have about him though.
I personally feel Polly Coltman ran into either Haystack or Paul Johnson. It’s said that Johnson was driving a tan LeMans back then. Polly “ if I’m not mistaken” said the car that was patrolling the neighborhood on the day Tim King was abducted was tan. It’s really a shame that Polly wasn’t able to see photos of suspects before she passed. Just seems like right when there’s a legit lead, something happens to detour the lead. I feel there are people that are alive that know who done these murders. With Johnson now dead, the Hurd keeps getting thinner. Time continues to tick
Johnson was institutionalized several times in the ‘70’s and also lived in a few halfway houses. According to one of the reports, he met a man who smothered a child in one of those places. Hard to say whether or not that really happened but regardless, was he possibly institutionalized with Haystack? Were they accomplices or did Johnson believe that he had done things Haystack told him about?