Highlights from the Transcript found in the FOIA Response by the MSP (Nos. 01123-01188; a 67-page transcript)Posted: March 6, 2013
Let me state up front that Larry Wasser’s name is redacted from this part of the FOIA response from the MSP. At page 01129, someone missed redacting a “Larry,” but I knew as of July 2006, before the cops ever got involved in this, that Larry Wasser is the polygrapher who talked to Patrick Coffey about the OCCK case in July 2006. And we tried for a year to find a way to get some information about what Wasser said without naming him directly or involving the cops early on, who, as you might have figured out by now, are not always that helpful in this case. You don’t have to be a brain surgeon to put this together. I didn’t slip in front of Pat Coffey, Mr. Wasser—you did.
I have to say I am getting sick of talking and thinking about this man. It kind of makes my skin crawl and it gives me occasional bouts of the dry heaves. And there are so many other important angles about this case and this investigation. But, here are the highlights from the transcript of the interview of Larry Wasser by two detectives on November 30, 2007. And lest you think I am picking on him, consider this. He could have avoided all of this by being straight with the Livonia detective in August 2007 and staying under the radar. I know he was in a horrible position when attorney Jane Burgess retained him to polygraph Chris Busch and things went the way they did. But, circumstances being what they were (serial killer of children for god’s sake), and circumstances having changed dramatically in the intervening years about how the law views privileged communications by a potential serial killer, who by definition will kill again, this man could have certainly done the right thing in 2007. But his ego wouldn’t let him. No, he throws Patrick Coffey under the bus and accuses him of being a boldfaced liar. He is that confident none of this shit is going to catch up with him. Must be nice.
Wasser couldn’t risk undermining all those decades of defending what he did in the face of that Busch pre-polygraph interview—all the big polygraph organization titles, all the weighing in on legislation and ethical rules designed at some level to defend the position he took after having the misfortune to cross paths with Christopher Busch. So, it is what it is. Ego is a very powerful thing. Almost as powerful as someone like H. Lee Busch and his money back in the day. And even if it turns out that somehow Chris Busch had nothing to do with the OCCK crimes—that Wasser’s “feeling” that somehow Busch was involved in the OCCK crimes was just that—a feeling, Busch was still a monster whose parents’ money and influence allowed him to victimize many, many kids in his 27 years. He was a prolific and unrepentant pedophile. And yet, in the wake of these revelations, not one law enforcement agency asked anyone who may have been victimized by Busch to come forward when his mug shots were all over the news beginning in October 2009. And there are other players—attorneys, prosecuting attorneys, judges, polygraphers, who have to carry a piece of this evil, too. I think most of us know all too well that Karma can be a bitch. These people just avoided it for more than three decades. I sometimes ask what Karma my family carried to have this inflicted upon us. No answers. But surely the Karmic debt extends to these other players.
Larry Wasser was interviewed on November 30, 2007 at the MSP Metro North Post. Based on his earlier representations to the Livonia detective, the task force looked at all the polygraph charts of exams given by Ralph Cabot of the MSP “from the years 1976 to 1980, including homicide polygraphs, with special emphasis on the OCCK.” (FOIA Document 01111.)
Lo and behold, the detective finds two polygraphs involving the OCCK that were given by Cabot at the Flint Post location: Christopher Brian Busch (deceased, “suicide” 1978) and Gregory Woodard Green (deceased, died in prison 1995), who happen to be “associates.” Those files are on the table so Wasser can take a gander at them and refresh his lagging recollection. These two names were among the first 300 tips provided in this case after Mark Stebbins was murdered in February 1976.
The interview was recorded. The redacted transcript was provided in response to my Dad’s FOIA lawsuit. This transcript makes me sick. What a weasel. Even after cutting a deal where he will look at the files to try to shake the name loose from his brain and perhaps even offer more—if he can avoid testifying under oath—he back pedals. “[T]he court order says that, just a name . . .” (01126.)]
As he looks at Busch’s file—boy oh boy, name doesn’t ring a bell (the pedophile son of a GM CFO—seriously pal??), but gee whiz this stuff about this guy—if this is the right guy??—going to England and then coming back and staying with his parents [in Bloomfield Village, MI]—that sounds familiar. “I’m telling you [the name] doesn’t mean anything. I told you name, its facts, that what triggers things.” (01127).
The facts are right there in the file, as the lead detective in the interview points out. Wasser starts looking at it and says “I saw him 30 years ago, if this is the right guy, but I, boy went to England, oh, stayed with his parents maybe a day and went to, what is this, up to Sanford [MI] and what’s [two sentences redacted]. The detective interviewing Wasser points out some other facts—just like Wasser said, Ralph Cabot of the MSP conducted this polygraph at the Flint Post. There are notes by Cabot and a Sgt. Doan of the Southfield MI PD who was working for the task force. These notes state that Busch’s associate, Greg Green told Cabot that Busch discussed with Green fantasies like tying up some kid, sexual problems, [redacted]. Does that ring a bell with you buddy? Response: “Oh Jesus Christ. No, England rings a bell, being in England.” (01127.)
Here’s where it gets really distressing for me reading this transcript. Wasser says “But here, something else. Now I’m, you better, Cory you better not quote me. I’d be really pissed at you, because you quote me and cut it out, Sanford or Hillman, is that up North.” (01128.)
Wasser is clearly reading the file and thens says “Oh, got it, this thing here, but my thing is, between us, and I’d deny I’m telling you this, I’d check out this Sanford or Hillman because they have, see where or not his guys, I don’t know where this is. Where is it?” (01129.) The detectives and Wasser then discuss the location—it’s around Atlanta, Michigan. Wasser then asks “How long would it take to get from there back down to here.” (Id.) Wasser then explains “Something about north. I don’t know, shit 30 years ago, if there was any evidence up there, it’s [redacted].
The detective brings things full circle for Wasser. This file, Chris Busch’s file, matches what Wasser remembers: polygraph by Cabot, in Flint; guy was in England and returned [just prior to Mark Stebbin’s abduction in February 1976] to spend a day or two at his parents’ house, and that he committed suicide. Wasser agrees: “It’s gotta be this guy.” But “I, I’m , I’m, the name I’ll tell you right now, Busch, I would have never ever, that name would have never meant anything to me.” (01130.) My notes in the margin from my first reading of this transcript say “Fucking liar!”
And that is the point where it becomes completely obvious what Wasser was doing. He was preserving the ability to say “I never gave up the name.” This was his premeditated approach to backtrack from what he uttered to Patrick Coffey in July 2006. His back is against the wall and after all his years as a big wig in the polygraph community—years spent manipulating legislation so it protects the type of decision made by Busch’s attorney Jane Burgess and Wasser in the wake of the OCCK crimes—there is no way he is going to say he gave up a name. Instead, the weasel sets it up so he can pick up the file, look at it, say this has gotta be the guy, but never say “yeah, it was Chris Busch.” And it is so sickening that after this, FBI Agent Sean Callahan will argue with my brother Mark that we are all full of shit because Wasser never gave up Busch’s name. This b.s. is repeated by the Oakland County Prosecutor’s office courtesy of APA Paul Walton and some reporters in the Detroit area eat this up.
Another detective asks Wasser if he has any old records, noting that “most polygraphers of your caliber and that, they keep all there stuff. They keep boxes and boxes . . . .” But oh no, Wasser has moved three times and has gotten ride of some of his files. (01130.) Never kept a log book, none of that nonsense.
As the interview progresses, Wasser and the detective refer to the 30 minute phone call he had with the main detective interviewing him the previous night. They both agree that Wasser said that the media would make a big to do about all of this and he wanted to be kept out of it. (01136.)
The detective then says: “You haven’t told us anything yet. How do we find, how do we solve a case with [just] a name?” Wasser hems and haws. Brass tack time—finally—what made you think this guy was involved in the OCCK cases and what did you ask him about taking any previous polygraphs?
“Okay. And then, okay, I asked him did you ever take a polygraph, he said yes. And I said who gave you the test. He said Michigan State Police, Now, thinking, I said where’d you, oh no, then he said, I said what was it regarding. He said that Oakland, those missing kids in Oakland County, something to that [e]ffect. And I said well how’d you do. [Redacted] it and I may have asked him because I don’t know why Flint sticks in my mind, because I knew the one that did all, most of the testing was Chester . . . (last name unclear) . . . Chet and I were like this and, and he knows I’m gonna deny this, if this if this guy had told me I killed these kids, I would’ve very quietly spoke to Chester. . . . And that would have been the end of it.” (01136.)
So the detective says—right; but what made you think he could have been involved? And—he must have mentioned something about up north or something to you, right?
Wasser: “Boy, I don’t know, something sticks in my mind about north and I don’t, I can’t put my finger on it, but I do, I would check to see where, you know, if his parents had a place there. “ The detective affirms that Busch’s parents had a place up north.
The detective presses on and asks what it was that made Wasser think this guy might have been involved in the OCCK crimes. Wasser: “Boy, I don’t know I, you know, something sticks in my mind about north and I don’t, I can’t put my finger on it, but I do, I would check to see where, you know, if his parents had a place there.” (01137.) Yeah, Larry, I just told you they did. The detective continues.
“Okay. Something made you inquire with Jane Burgess after this polygraph.”
Wasser: “No I didn’t. I told her, I said Jane I don’t know if you know that your client had taken a previous polygraph Oakland County, ah, child, ah, mult [sic], you know, killings. So she, I think she told me she didn’t know that.” The detective then asks “Okay, but after than, you asked about a year later. Wasser: “I, I was approx., I can’t remember. She called me about this other case and this thing always stuck in my mind.” Why? “Because he, there was something about this guy that was so strange. I can’t put my finger on it. He never made any admissions to me. He, that, it was just strange about must [sic] him, you know.”
The detectives and Wasser then discuss the fact that something sticks in Wasser’s mind about this guy [Busch] being involved in a fondling case in a pool in Pontiac, Oakland County. According to one of the detectives, Busch had CSCs pending in four different Michigan counties back in the day. (01139.)
Wasser then goes on to say “Boy oh boy,” he’s so glad he saw these notes in Busch’s file because “Europe, not so much England, Europe really sticks in my mind.” (Id.)
Wasser whines about all of the grief the detectives have put him through. (01146.) The main detective says “Time out, time out. The first time I met you, what did I, what did I say to you? . . . I could’ve saved you thousands, thousands in attorney fees by doing this, doing what we’re doing right now. I asked you to do this [sit down and talk about all of this.]” (Id.)
After a bunch of b.s., the detective brings it back around and asks “What made you think he’s [Busch] is crazy, that’s what we are trying to get at.” (01149.) Wasser: “I don’t know. Maybe it was because he said something about other kids. I can’t remember.” (Id.)
More b.s. Then, Wasser says: “Listen, I told you [ ], and I’m gonna say it again if this guy had made an admission to me that he killed somebody involved in this case, I would have dropped a dime with Chester [MSP polygrapher]. “ (01153.)
And, again—Wasser: “He, what I remember, what he, I asked him did you ever take a polygraph and I was stunned because I didn’t know that. And sometimes attorneys will tell you I know my client has taken a previous polygraph, but I, see now in retrospect, after I talked to her, she didn’t even know he had taken a [previous] polygraph and I asked did you ever take a polygraph. He said yes. And I said who gave you the test. He said the Michigan State Police. I said for what reason. He said dealing with the Oakland County missing children. I said how’d you do on that test.” (01154.)
Wasser again goes for the sympathy plea: “Well you know I’ve been through a lot.” (01157.) Haven’t we all, pal? And then: “And I’m talking too much now.” (01158.)
The Europe thing comes up again. “And England, it’s not England, there’s something about coming, returning from Europe.” The main detective points out that Busch’s father worked in Europe. Wasser: “I asked him, because we ask him what do you do for a living, okay. I don’t even think this guy worked. Let me see this.” (01160.) Discussion follows about Busch’s degree from Northwood Institute in hotel/restaurant management and his management position at the Scotsman Restaurant in Alma, MI. (Id.)
The interview continues. Wasser describes Busch as “kooky,” and reiterates that “I just have, I’ve always had a feeling that this guy was the guy.” (01161.) Wasser goes so far as to say that he mentioned this “kooky” guy to Tom McMann (?? Someone investigating the OCCK crimes), who tells Wasser to bring his kid to the Dearborn police to have Wasser’s kid (5 or 6 at the time) fingerprinted. (01162.) He says he did get his kid fingerprinted.
On the next page, Wasser indicates that he is “going over,” “going far beyond” what he said he would tell the cops and then he says “I’m gonna lose Feinberg for an attorney.” (01163.) James Feinberg, who shares office space with the husband and son of Jane Burgess, now deceased, who represented Busch back in the day.
Wasser then complains that this stuff about Busch “would be in the news media and it would be a black eye to the family that, if you guys come out and said a hundred percent, he did it.” (01168.) Like any of us give a rat’s ass about any black eye the sole-surviving first-degree relative of Chris Busch might incur? A guy who has more money than god and has lived 36 years without any taint? Busch’s parents lived until their early 90’s none-the-worse for the wear. But they are dead now. How many more people who are avoiding “black eyes” have to croak before justice is served? Any one of those dead kids would have settled for a black eye instead of what happened to them.
And then, Wasser says: “I know what you’re looking at and I’m telling you for the hundredth time, if somebody made an admission to me that they killed this, killed any of these kids, I would have told you.” (01171.)
At page 01180—“He was living in Alma when they tested him.” Again, Mr. Wasser; you can’t remember this guy’s name after 30 years but you remember he lived in Alma when they tested him? Oh—“And something sticks in my mind about Birmingham.” (01181.) You don’t say.
The main detective notes that Ralph Cabot, who conducted the MSP polygraph on Busch concerning the OCCK case, noted that Busch told him he liked to tie up kids. Wasser says “kooky” to him meant liking kids—no mention of tying anyone up. “I think he, in fact, I think he may have been a little feminine. Was this guy [Green] a homosexual?” A better question would have been, “Was Greg Green a pedophile?” because he most certainly was and he had a trail of victims that was bigger than Busch’s.
There is a fair amount of discussion about cremation and how much of the body is destroyed and if there is anything left to test after such a procedure. Busch was cremated in short order after his expedited autopsy. For the next few pages, Wasser asks repeatedly if Busch is buried. Why? “because the next step would be to go ahead and do the DNA . . . ” (01187.)
The interview ends with a request that if Wasser remembers anything else that he please call the detectives. Wasser: “No. There isn’t anything because I tore up everything.” (01188.) No follow-up question like–when did you “tear it up?” or “is it your practice to tear up files?” The interview ends with Wasser’s plea to the main detective: “[ ] can you, you need to keep my name out.” (01188.)
I need to find the page where Wasser tells the cops he talks to Jane Burgess down the road about this “kooky” freak and she tells him not to worry because he is dead. Then I can cite the page number and give you a direct quote. See why I have the dry heaves?