People smarter than I have discovered discrepancies in the actual documentary evidence in this case. Yesterday it was two Tip #370’s. Today it is four polygraphs. This is mostly a public corruption case, not an unsolved serial murder/rape case. If somebody has a logical explanation for any of this bullshit, a lot of us would like to hear it.
It was a busy week from Tuesday, January 25, 1977 to Tuesday, February 1, 1977 at the Flint P.D. As you recall, on January 25 Greene, who had been arrested for sexually assaulting boys on the baseball team he coached, told police Chris Busch killed Mark Stebbins. This became Tip #369 in the OCCK case:
Based on what Greene said, police determined Greene “was more of a suspect than Busch,” and Greene became the subject of Tip #370, as outlined in what I call the first Tip #370, below:
The body of this little report indicates that the following day, January 26, 1977, Greene was then interviewed by Richard Thompson (OCP chief deputy) and Gary Hawkins (OCP investigator and whatever), and Southfield Lt. Simmons. Then Greene was polygraphed twice that day at Flint PD, as indicated above.
The report section of the “second” Tip #370 states it a bit differently, listing two polygraphs given to Greene on January 26, but with Greene then being interviewed by Thompson, Hawkins and Simmons.
Yet we have a report from Flint PD Sgt. Melvin Scott, provided to Det. Doan concerning a 5-question polygraph Scott administered to Greg Greene on 27 Jan 77.
I’m not the greatest math person, but that’s looking like polygraph #3 on old Greene. Whatever was learned on January 25-27 via interviews of Greg Greene and those polygraphs, as well as the interview of victim Ken Bowman, it was enough to issue an arrest warrant for Chris Busch’s on January 28, 1977, in Alma. He was driven to Flint PD and at 8 pm on the 28th, he was given a polygraph, not by Melvin Scott of Flint PD, but by Ralph Cabot of the Michigan State Police. An “upgrade,” if you will.
Tip #369, above, indicates in the report section that a polygraph was run on Busch on January 28.
To compound the math difficulty, there is another polygraph report dated February 1, 1977, on another exam conducted on Greg Greene, this time by Ralph Cabot.
There are two polygraph reports in the FOIA documents covering exams given to Greene on January 27 and February 1. So where are the reports on the two polygraphs administered to Greene on January 26? Who administered them? And why didn’t either of the two Tip 370s list the January 27 and the February 1 polygraph exams?
And which of the “old polygraph charts” of Busch and Greene were actually reviewed by Robert Dykstra, John Wojnaroksi and Tim Larion?
By February 1, Busch was walking free after his bond was reduced from $75,000 to $1,000. Polygraph magic. I just want to know why it took four polygraphs to make magic with Greg Greene, who was going up the river forever, no matter what.
Was Ralph Cabot just tragically incompetent or a “puppet”?
The level of corruption & deceit… it is never ending and right out of the ball park.
This makes no sense to me. So based on the document I think you called First Tip 370 (2nd document in this post), it states that Green passed the polygraph regarding ‘info he gave’, which I assume is about Busch? He also passed regarding info as a suspect (which I assume to mean Greene was claiming innocence?). That being said, they then determined that Greene turned out to be more of a suspect than Busch. How is that possible if it appears he was telling the truth about the info he shared and as a suspect? WTF?
Cathy
To your knowledge has anybody gone back to Greg Greens house at any point after his arrest to inspect the roof hiding place and would this still be possible now if we obtained current owners permission etc.
Matt
I believe a podcaster went to the house, knocked on the door and asked the current owner (this was quite a few years ago) about this hidden “room” and the owner said there wasn’t one. Greene’s brother told Cory Williams that Greg hid boy(s) in this area off of an upstairs bedroom and that z current owner might not even know it was there. This was Greene’s father’s house and the father was ill and bedridden. That’s what I recall.
This is weird! Alpena Witness (AW) discussed hearing JH talk about a room upstairs when she talked to Helen back in 1991 at the Big Boy. It was described as a room where JH would take the children to play games and watch TV in his story telling to Helen. This was one thing that he remembers very well being discussed right from JH’s mouth that Helen never remembered or could ever confirm. It was never in any of her notes about such a room. It was brought up a few times thru the years though, first time was on Helen’s website and was in regards to JH living in a single floor house so AW was asking Helen about it in open discussion. As I recall he wrote, ‘Where’s this room upstairs?” to Helen in regards to photos being showed of JH house for the first time on her website. AW went into some detail about hearing JH talking with an upstairs reference. AW also talked about it some in his interview with Andy in recent times. It was covered briefly in the FOIA papers as well as it seemed like Cory brought it up to JH during their questioning him in Georgia 2009 before the failed polygraph outing days later. It is probably just a sheer coincidence as it’s never been proven that JH and Greene ever worked together or that JH ever been to Greene’s house.
Finding out if Greene’s old home ever had any signs of a preexisting room upstairs could be of real value to the case though especially if DNA (OCCK victims) was left behind by any chance and uncovered. Unfortunately Michigan is determined to stay in prehistoric times and not utilize DNA in any of their investigations. So why even bother investigating anything? Question – Where did this reference of a ‘room upstairs’ ever come from the first time? Cathy, where did you hear it first?
It’s in the initial reports to Flint PD when Greene is arrested. One of the victims tells of spending the night there. Decades later, one of Greene’s brothers describes this set up, along with the fact that Greg drove a van and god knows what went on in there.
So that goes back to 1977. When did you first know about it? Do you recall any discussion of a room upstairs when photos of JH old home in Birmingham were first shown on Helen’s website? Somewhere around 2007 maybe?
I’m simply trying to figure out if AW referenced a ‘room upstairs’ (Helen’s website) before any of this was ever known about Greg Greene. Just seems kind of weird as a stunning coincidence but unfortunately would only be base on people’s memories at this point.
I can answer that. I often communicated with AW. Alpena Witness heard and referenced this room in the overheard conversations between JH and Helen before any of the initial information about Busch and Greene ever surfaced. I am 99% sure of this but can go back and check my files. I will respond either way. It makes me wonder how closely connected JH and Greene/Busch et al. might really have been. Had JH seen that room in Flint?
Judi, I think the “room” at Greene’s dad’s house was more of a crawl space.
I think you are right. Barely able for two people to stand up in… recalling from my memory. I don’t recall the description from Dagner’s site (via JH) or the date it was discussed and I can’t send to find it anywhere.
I got excited over the ‘room upstairs’ reference but yeah I over-reacted.
Cathy is right of it being more a crawl space of some sort as the current owners don’t know about it.
Just a weird coincidence and I believe now that is all it really was. Trying so hard to look for things and making them significant when they are not.
Hell Hastings didn’t need a special room. He lived alone on Tuckhoe. I believe it was around 2007 when his address was first shown.
Agree. It was just that it was something AW remembered being discussed and when Helen had photos of a single floor house it raised questions from him. Was always shrugged off as made up details like the chicken bone in the victim’s pocket. It just seemed weird to run across a discussion here about something that sounds so similar. Since no one else seems to remember it being covered on Helen’s site, we just drop it.
I’m just wondering if this is still a viable option if for instance a private investigator was to approach the current owner and offer let’s say $1000 and a nights accommodation would he be willing to allow somebody to inspect the roof,even if nothing is recovered it could then be wiped from the list of things to search,at least everyone would feel like we are contributing to the case .
Matt
Greene first passed Melvin Scott’s polygraph regarding the information he supplied about Busch killing Stebbins. He was asked, “did you see Busch with Stebbins, did Busch tell you he killed Stebbins, do you know for sure Busch killed Stebbins.” Greene answered “No” and passed the polygraph as truthful.
Greene’s second polygraph was about his direct involvement in the OCCK cases. This was conducted by Cabot at MSP Flint. He denied any involvement and at that time, the examiner told the police Greene passed.
So who polygraphed him on 1/26?
Cory,
What does the box “Intelligence Check” mean on a report? It was marked “X” for Greg Greene. I assume it means that the Flint PD checked with various agencies (local, state and federal) to see if any were using Greene as an informant on any ongoing cases. Am I right?
Since when is a suspect on one case who rolls over on another suspect suddenly referred to as an “informant”? Is that the typical term used to describe one perp’s claim about another perp?
One jailed suspect who accuses another suspect of a crime is not typically referred to as an “informant” in written reports, is he? (Unless, of course, the original suspect did have some sort of clandestine relationship with some level of law enforcement, right?)
This recent uncovering is mind-blowing and terrifying! Evil people allowed to walk these streets. Every child (in Oakland County) was in serious danger and might still be. I can’t even pretend to understand how traumatizing this was for you Cathy and I often wish I could help you. Like I’ve told you in emails, your writing this blog has made me very protective of my children and I believe that I took action when absolutely necessary to keep my kids safe. I never could take my eyes off them. Can we speculate what all of this would have meant for GM?
I just kinda feel the perpetrators of our crimes lived within the proximity of Woodward and 9 mile. The killer would know this area like the back of his hand. Greene would have had to drive quite some distance in Harsh Michigan elements. The killer or killers abducted in the winter. Jill and Timmy were taken in the evening on a weekday. I personally can’t see Greene driving for an hour south to hunt kids when he could hunt in Genesse or northern Oakland counties. So that being said “ who lived within the proximity of the victims? Hmmmm
I’m not sure why living in the Ferndale area (Woodward and Nine Mile) would ensure the killer knew the areas like the back of his hand? I lived near Woodward and 15 mile and knew that area fairly well but not like the back of my hand and had almost zero knowledge of the Woodward and Nine Mile area. I understand that you are trying to point to a specific suspect(s) but I think it is dangerous and presumptuous to rule people out. As for the “harsh” Michigan elements. . . March 16, 1977 was a warm, sunny, late springlike day.
I agree with you that we can’t over look anyone; however, if you really look into this logically and timely , would a person drive an hour during those times of year to look for children? What’s the probability? Or is there a much higher percentage that it COULD have been a person that lived very close by? A person that lived close by. I understand that during TImmys abduction the weather was nice. That doesn’t change the fact that it was 8:30pm on a Wednesday evening. The other kids were abducted on cold days, but I understand you can’t rule anymore out. My issue is time is running out and there are some Legit suspects or suspect that still alive and living in Doreville Georgia. That being said” how much time does he have left before his days are up?” We can do nothing with Busch, Greene, Norberg, but we can certainly get justice with Haystack
He seems to come up with something that never fails. This last time he pulled out a book on serial killers that threw them off his tracks.
Yea and his interests are cold case files and forensic files. Don’t believe me? Check his Facebook out . There’s way way too much to blow off and ignore concerning John boy.
If that is the case, maybe he’s ready to turn himself in? Too bad there is no one working this still ‘open’ case to do anything about it.
I would be extremely shocked if he turned himself in. Narcissists never feel they are wrong. He’s to arrogant to give up. All I know is that that polygraph reading needs to be addressed. Still would like to know what John boy drove back in the day. There’s never been anything concrete on that. Is Duncan still part of the Georgia PE? seems like he’s went silent. So many questionable acts.
Unless there is a new suspect that pops up, the only ones with concrete evidence and the only ones to drop the bomb on are Gunnels and Haystack. Those two are the only ones that there are answers to be found. It’s obvious we won’t get them from Busch, Green, Moore, Norberg, McNamee , Lamborghine, Sloan. Lawsen .
The arrogance continues to build for these type as it never ends. By him admitting to reading forensics is another admitting to something Helen had stated all along. If he really worships serial killers like Bundy and such, he would take credit for it before he dies. Unfortunately no one is working the case to ever know or find out. Who knows what the hell happened in 2009 in Georgia. He might have admitted to it back then. Only trained polygraphers would recognize it. It’s all probably sitting on some DVDs that may no longer exist. I guess we will never know the truth!
I guess that’s what really gets me. The possibility that nothing will get done with this guy. It’s quite obvious you and I KNOW that he was involved in some degree. I know a few think he was a low key figure. My opinion is he was involved to the very hilt. It’s a gut wrenching feeling with him. Pretty strange he knew a lot about Ted Bundy , when he reminds me of old Ted himself. Same demeanor. Both loners, both into physical well-being. Hell they looked alike. I personally see the OCCK case similar to Teds case. The difference is he killed woman.
All the lights are out in Michigan. No one in authority and no ones cares. Impossible to solve as records and evidence are lost long ago. Meanwhile cold cases are solved just about everywhere else in the world!
I still live in the area and raised kids here. It is typical for kids from Bloomfield to attend University of Detroit Jesuit on 7 Mile and Roselawn which is where L. Brooks Patterson went. I think it’s reasonable to assume that most of these characters were linked since childhood due to activities like sports, music, boyscouts, camps, church, schools, etc.
Cathy – you, your family members, and other collaborating ‘members of the public’, have done a great public service – by uncovering and making public, evidence that public (and also police investigators) perceptions about OCCK, and other potentially related child sexual exploitation cases of that era, have been distorted and manipulated by incompetence, by misinformation deliberate or accidental, and by omission and perhaps even intentionally ‘hiding’ important info.
This is a fact that your ‘treatment’ by Michigan ‘powers that be’ can never change, however much they might deride you. And thanks.
But still, there are some things about what was going on with Michigan’s predatory pedos and their victims of that era, that I’ve never seen be raised and discussed publicly.
They are recorded in the investigator reports you’ve made public, but even in those reports, there is no recorded follow-up. I assume, that’s because the information was not deemed of immediate relevance to these investigator’s “lines of inquiry” at that time. It’s possible that the heroic Det. Williams – an archetype of “checking out every grain of sand on the beach” if there ever was one – may have pursued them, but that’s not recorded in those reports.
I feel obligated to raise them myself, not because I think I ‘know’ they might have relevance to OCCK or other crimes against children, but just because I never seen them remarked on. They could be of no relevance to those crimes, ever, but not talking about them – by itself – creates distorted perceptions about realities. Not by anyone’s design or intention, these things are simply crowded out by more obviously relevant info, I think.
I’ll start with a statement by Ralph J., who was a 14 year old involved in prostitution at the time of the Gorzen reports. Contacted by investigators as an adult 3-21-07, Ralph was asked “if there was someone who controlled the money or set-up the meets with the adult men, to which he stated, no he just did it on his own for the money, like all the boys in his neighborhood”.
This was actually the archetypal level of independence and self-agency, for white male juvenile prostitutes in the 12-17 age range in America at that time – documented repeatedly in research of the same period. Unlike their female counterparts, most were not forced, coerced or lured into the sex trade – they learned the facts about it primarily from peers, and the decision to pursue it themselves was their own. Most were not controlled by adult pimps, either.
There were varying degrees of self-agency among the victims of the 1970’s pedophiles, as recorded in various reports, but Ralph J’s statement that “all the boys” he knew about, “did it on their own”, directly contradicts the perception that all crimes against children in that area at that time were directed and controlled by some singular organization, or by coordinated secret societies of perverts like “Better Life”.
By contrast, “Duffys” boys appear to have been directly controlled by him. Statements by the men who exploited these boys with Duffy, contain claims that they never paid Duffy for the “privilege” of abusing the boys, that this was a sharing or trading of “resources” by alleged friends. Similarly, Josiah T’s primary victim was taken by him to visit with some other pervert and that man’s favorite victim, and the boys were ‘traded’ between the offenders, rather than prostituted to each other in more traditional sense.
These are examples of victims being “passed around” between offenders who knew each other prior to the exploitation of their boys, generating victims “in common” with each other. But that’s not the entirety of what was going on.
In some cases, Victim A of Pervert 1, introduces Child B to Pervert 1, and they subsequently become his Victim B. Any self-interest that Victim A might have had for bringing the two together, is rarely mentioned in the reports – whether or not this was an paid act of pimping or recruiting. Sometimes Victim B subsequently introduces Child C and D to Pervert 1, and they also become his victims. C or D may also have been abused by Pervert 2, so those men now have victims in common even though Perv1 and Perv2 may not know each other!
In such cases, the “passing around” of this victim is self-initiated and voluntary, and not a result of integrated-coordinated-planned child exploitation by all the pedophiles involved.
There are also examples where Victim Z of Pervert 3, introduces Pervert 3 to Pervert 4! The connecting element isn’t the pedophiles, it’s the boy victim! in that case.
Another former juvenile prostitute, who was a victim & associate of Bob Moore contacted as an adult by recent investigators, claimed not to know/recognize Vince Gunnel’s abusers Greene or Busch, but was quite definite that he recognized Vinny! as someone he’d seen hanging out with the other boys at Moore’s place. How could that be – if Busch or Greene weren’t involved with Moore and thus having mutual victims “passed” between them, or perhaps not even knowing Moore at all! It IS possible, because we don’t know the extent of Vinny’s self-agency or any self-interest he might have had in pursuing relationships with other pedophiles on his own.
And finally, in the recent investigator reports it is recorded that at least one of the Cass Corridor victims knew another juvenile who “was driving” in those days, despite not having a license. There WERE unlicensed juvenile males, with an involvement in one or more of the pedo “rings”, driving around on their own. No controlling adult in the vehicle. Giving other juveniles “thrill rides” in whatever vehicle. But did they own the vehicle, or were they driving cars owned by one or more of their pedo abusers?