Hastings, Greene and composite drawings

First Greene and then the initial composite next to Hastings’ passport photo. Compare hairline/widow’s peak and lips to composite. Then a comparison with a second composite drawing, then the 1992 poly results for Hastings. You can draw your own conclusions, as law enforcement never really did.

Greene mug shot January 1977:


102 Comments on “Hastings, Greene and composite drawings”

  1. HN says:

    Well I’ll be God damn! My conclusions have been made a very long time ago, and this passport photo just signifies them even more. You match the freaking composite photo next to John Boy. Come on . For CHRIST Sakes! It doesn’t take an Einstein.

    Oh boy the polygraph readers determination. How about Duncan’s conclusions?

    I know the witness at Tim’s abduction said the suspect was wearing a tan sports jacket. I know in this photo of John boy he wasn’t wearing a sports jacket ; however, what color is this jacket he’s wearing here?

    • Inquisitor says:

      There are not too many composite sketches in crime history that match as well as this with JH. Maybe Michigan justice system needs a round of eye exams and new glasses, Anyone care to donate?

  2. Inquisitor says:

    I don’t see the Greene pic. I see JH twice but that kind of says that they are very similar looking to make that mistake. Once corrected, maybe we can take a vote? I will admit that they both match quite well but JH wins my vote by a few points just in the widow’s peak detail and how hair is parted but the other one that was in jail at the time is a close second (GG). Let’s get some of these people on here and discuss it.

    • cathybroad says:

      I will make sure link to Greene works.

    • Inquisitor says:

      Correction – I should have stated the lack of widow’s peak in the sketches. Someone needs to explain how multiple witnesses with multiple sketches missed that detail if this was indeed Greene, In the Greene photos will show it very apparent almost looking like Eddie Munster. Maybe we can get someone that does police sketches on here to explain how that can be missed?

      • JN says:

        Lmao great description of Greene. “ Eddie Munster”. You can’t deny his Widow Peak. His is profound. His hair seems to be much more thicker than John Boys . The composites hair seems more on the thin side . Like JH. One of the biggest differences between what the witness seen that differs from Hastings and Greene isn’t the hair. The witness said he was clean, wearing a sports jacket. This doesn’t seem like Greene at all. Greene was a grease monkey. A guy with minimal means. Hastings on the other hand , was from a well to do family.

        • Inquisitor says:

          JN
          Why do we see this and these so called qualified people do not? Or is someone just pulling my leg? Seems like a lot of blind loyalty going around towards someone or some thing in regards to OCCK case. No matter how I squint my eyes the widows peak is there in the Greene photos but not in the sketches. Maybe looking straight at truth is not the answer?

          • JN says:

            Why would there be a widows peak in the sketches when it wasn’t Greene at Hunters Maple on March 16, 1977 at 8:30 pm. The so called experts are protecting Hastings . I have no idea why, but they are. Maybe L Brooks was buddies with daddy Hastings . Greene is irrelevant because its been proven he was in jail anyways. So there’s no discrepancy here. I tend to lean towards Catherine. Hastings was helping Busch with Timmy . That fat fuck couldn’t approach a kid without them running and screaming. From my understanding Hastings was a child in a mans body. Let’s make no mistake here . Hastings and Busch had to of known each other. Same age, two streets from each other and both cooks, both freaks of nature. I’m not saying Greene wasn’t involved with the other kids . Im really not sure there. There wasn’t witnesses at the other kids abductions , like there was at TImmys.

            • Inquisitor says:

              Sadly although we’re discussing details of photos versus sketches some people are throwing what side of the fence they are on in their beliefs of who they want to be there at the pharmacy that day. Seems like some people’s egos are actually fully riding on it. So when it comes to facts and such things as facial features, it does not come into play for them. While you, I & others are just trying to seek the truth wherever that takes us. I don’t know what else to conclude from this.

              I will never believe for a minute that the sketches which comprises basically 3 witnesses (One that the sketch came from by description, another inside pharmacy that agreed to the sketch results, & Doug WIlson hypnosis separate sketch) all missed a very profound stand out feature in Greene. If we can’t get one of these 10 experts to come on here and discuss this then I consider it a BS post.

            • cathybroad says:

              Hastings got the “pass” in 1992 because his can of worms would have come dangerously close to H. Lee and LBP. Fuck that strangely worded polygraph of him in 1977 that didn’t address the other kids, didn’t address sexual contact with any of the kids. By 1992 Busch was long dead, Greene was locked up for life (and soon to have a heart attack in the big house). But Hastings and Gunnels? Both still alive and potential trouble. And what does a non-Michigan polygrapher determine in 2009? Plenty: https://catherinebroad.blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/hastings-polygraph-august-2009.pdf. Not only does no one follow up on this work done by the Georgia Highway Patrol as a favor to the MSP, they blow off polygrapher Duncan. Then Det. Garry Gray keeps this information from Det. Cory Williams. Oh, and yeah they “lost” the DVDs and records of the work Duncan did. And worst of all, a man who at a minimum has knowledge concerning the OCCK crimes, walks free. I’m telling you, he knows. And he knows plenty about the GM sex/porn ring. Piece of shit.

  3. livoniaguy says:

    Also, the other drawing described by the hypnotized Doug Wilson sure looks like Richard McNamee to me.

    • Inquisitor says:

      Agree and McNamee is connected to Busch thru investigation of his suicide/murder scene. The way I understand it, he was miraculous there the morning of the discovery. So what gives here?

      • JN says:

        The pedo ass McNamee was miraculous with his discovery work of fellow Pedo Grizzly Adams. How ironic two pedophiles in the same room , living within walking distances of each other. Nah just coincidences.

        In all honesty, this case haunted me as a kid and I can’t believe this serial killer hasn’t been brought to Justice . The families of those kids deserve Justice. Granted killers get away with killing all the time, but how many serial killers never get caught? I’d say percentage is quite high they get caught. It’s long over due that this one is put to rest.

        • Inquisitor says:

          JN

          You think McNamee and CB were partners or rivals?

          • JN says:

            Oh I think they were partners, if they were rivals, McNamee would have gotten Busch earlier . I think McNamee felt the heat coming and he possibly offed Busch. I think Hastings was right with them. All three neighborhood buddies.

  4. dts1017 says:

    Despite the uncertainty of whether or not Greene was in jail when Tim was abducted or not, I always felt the first composite was him. But the sketch based on Doug Wilson’s recollection sure looks more like Hastings. How incredibly frustrating for victim families that this lingers when the latter pos is still alive

    • Inquisitor says:

      Very valid point and interesting observation as the first composite sketch and Doug WIlson reference are so similar sketches in hairstyle and all. I can see where your coming from somewhat as Hastings and Doug Wilson sketch have a rounder face however the widow’s peak hairline cannot be ignored which you seem to be implying. Whatever the case the continuous detective work base purely on wishful thinking is and has been part of the the problem with ever solving this case. The hoping that a Vega looks so much like a Gremlin having some type of merit to the case and Greene being out of jail although no paper trace has ever proven it is pure wishful thinking but seems to defy any facts. It makes the case a complete recycle where nothing ever gets resolved. Unfortunately with no real evidence or lab work done on anything that is all that is left to work with. Just spinning our wheels year after year with nothing to ever show for it. So for now, I’m out of here.

    • G-Man says:

      I agree with dts1017. I thought the same when comparing the first and second composite drawings.

      Curiously, I do not remember too many of the second composite drawing being posted in my neighborhood as this was occurring. Just the first composite drawing. Of course, my memory is not what it used to be.

      However, they are composites, not photographs. They are based on memory, not based on a photograph. It can be highly flawed. Look at some of the composites from the Son of Sam crimes that was going on during the same time period.

  5. Assuming that certain people (LE) were paid to cover up evidence, there are a lot of facts that implicate GM. Someone wanted the investigation to stop. By halting the investigation, who were they protecting? Was it L. Brooks Patterson or H. Lee Busch? Or was it the Fisher family? Law enforcement spread falsehoods about the AMC gremlin which conveniently looked similar to Busch’s blue Vega. The only composite sketch released to public looks like Greene and that made sense. Here’s my question: was Vince Gunnels how they busted N. Fox Island?

    • cathybroad says:

      Good question. I can’t answer it. The limited FOIA documents from the MSP did not mention Gunnels and the FBI claims their records were saturated beyond recognition in a “catastrophic flood.”

  6. JN says:

    We can sit here and debate on who those Composites look like all day long ; however, there’s no mistaking that Greene was in FACT in jail at the time of Timmys abduction. I don’t know if half of you don’t pay attention or what. Catherine has proved this FACT over and over and over. Now anyways , the Composites look absolutely nada of Greene. Like I’ve mentioned. Greene has much thicker , wavy hair in comparison to the sketches . Hastings hair is fine like the sketches . Greene has a pug nose . The sketches nose is pointy. Like John Boys nose.

  7. JN says:

    Doesn’t anyone find it just a tad strange that Hastings bailed up to Alpena after the murders? Then he goes to LK Orion . Then he heads south to Georgia . Got the hell out so there was no heat on his sorry ass. Out of sight, out of mind. This puss boy needs to be brought in front of a God damn grand jury. For starters Heather Catallo put his sad mug up on channel 7 next to the composites. There’s a good start. This needs to be done NOW! he’s 72 with health issues . No fucking way should he die without paying the fiddler.

  8. Anonymous says:

    It’s also been proven that GG was out on bond in March of 77. Feel fee to believe he wasn’t. Our minds aren’t changing & neither are yours.( Knowing all the shenanigans Helen Dagner pulled & being so deceitful about the so called tape, she lacks credibility. No question JH is odd but did he truly know anything more than someone who just followed the case with such detail? Was he ever charged with any CSC crimes?)
    The description was quoted as, “Rust colored sport jacket, heavy set.” There are mug shots of CB with a sport coat on, too bad it wasn’t in color. It could very well be Rust in color.
    A witness said the man talking to TK was “swarthy.”
    So many puzzle pieces & none of them fit!
    It’s so odd about the fixation on GG’s widow peak and yet, bald as an eagle on top McNamee is supposedly the older man in DW’s description composite, hmm…
    Truth be told, Chris Flynn’s Photo on the timeline resembles the younger photo of DW’s description that many think look like JH. I happen to think that DW’s composite of the younger man doesn’t really look like GG or JH.
    Judy Diebolt’s position on Children of the Snow, said it in reality about this case never getting solved. If they truly wanted it to be, it would have been by now.
    LE can’t be trusted, Oakland County doesn’t seem to care & Wayne County can’t touch VG about the hair from KM because of the jurisdiction, so where is there to go since the case is still in the hands of the MSP?
    #WillalwayshopeforJUSTICE

    • Inquisitor says:

      If there is this so called proof of GG out on bond, let’s see it. Certainly Cathy has never ran across it. Wishful thinking is not proof. I’m tired of the few that keep going back to this based on absolutely nothing. A cop’s memory of it is not considered proof. Especially with everything that has went on with this case.

      We’re back to the definition of ‘swarthy’. That’s getting rather silly isn’t it? 200 lbs is not 300 lbs. If that was CB all of this time at the pharmacy, I’m sure the witness would have chosen other words, Try to get real with this, please!

      #WeAllWantJustice

      • cathybroad says:

        And for god’s sake, if you have PROOF about Greene’s whereabouts on March 16, let’s go. Put your cards on the table. What are you waiting for?

        • Inquisitor says:

          We will see if he ever responds. I heard thru the grapevine similar might even be the same person. They tried to get his so called ‘proof’ out of him. It ended up being that he met some retired cops in a bar once where they discussed OCCK and they stated that Greene was on bond during that time. Perhaps that is all the proof he has. Does it get any better than this?

    • cathybroad says:

      I agree that law enforcement cannot be trusted and that Oakland County doesn’t care. Oakland County cannot be trusted, either. Forty-five years later we are talking about composite drawings and a car i.d. made by a woman. Witness memory. Unreliable. People in prosecutors’ offices made sure the reliable evidence didn’t get any traction. Ditched and manipulated evidence. What the OCP and the MSP did and continue to do is the real crime here. They are complicit enablers and they have blood on their hands. This has never seemed to bother them.

      • The fact that Jessica Cooper called this a conspiracy theory on Oakland County website makes her complicit. Right? You think she was covering for L. Brooks? Was she connected to Jane Burgess?

        • cathybroad says:

          At a minimum, Cooper and Walton are complicit for illegal redactions in the FOIA response to Kevin Dietz and the Detroit Free Press, which had to be provided to my dad because they had previously denied these very documents to him. Their claims of work product were void on the basis of the crime/fraud exception. More evidence of guilt: Cooper transferred the OCCK files to Sheriff Mike Bouchard in an attempt to evade further FOIA requests. The first three FOIA requests were limited to the files on Chris Busch. They had much more and that is why these files got offloaded to Bouchard, who is now also complicit. Cooper would never comment about any connections with Jane Burgess or connections/discussions with Larry Burgess, Wasser or Patterson/Thompson. Even under oath (like that is ever going to happen), I doubt she would come clean.

          • cathybroad says:

            And those files sat for years in Bouchard’s office. Every attorney from the OCP office who participated in this document shuffle should be brought up on disciplinary charges with the Michigan State Bar.

            • Anonymous says:

              What will it take to bring this to Karen McDonald’s attention?

              • cathybroad says:

                Apparently not the extensive letters I sent in January of this year, with Marney Keenan’s book, all of Det. Cory Williams case notes, and other relevant documents. She gave me and my dad her word she would meet with us if she got elected. My dad died soon after the election and that was that. I got one long phone call in January after my first letter. She was unwilling to meet with me, my brothers, Kym Worthy, Cory Williams, Marney Keenan and a retired FBI agent, as I had requested. Her chief deputy is perhaps addressing some of my concerns, but it is extremely slow going so . . . I get it, the office was a mess when they took over and there is a ton of work without having been left this cold case that has been kicked down the road by every prosecutor since 1977.

                Dana Nessel’s office was contacted, initially seemed interested and then went totally dark.

                What is it going to take? Apparently for Hell to freeze over.

  9. There’s a composite sketch that looks like Vince Gunnels. Where did that come from? Was it released to public?

    • JN says:

      Not according to the actual witnesses at Tim’s abduction . Research .

    • cathybroad says:

      I believe this drawing was made from a witness description of an attempted abduction and may not have been done by a police sketch artist. Yes it looks like Gunnels ,who I believe made his own abduction attempts during this era. He was a victim, then a lure and I believe he later tried to abduct a couple of kids on his own for $$.

  10. KP says:

    If Greene parted his hair on the side, you wouldn’t see his widow’s peak, and the sketch seems to show the hair parted on the side. Hastings has very downward slanted eyes which are not depicted in the sketch as well. If I had to pick, I would say it is Greene with hair parted on the side. The sketch just looks fierce or something, and Hastings doesn’t have that look to me.

    I know there has been some confusion as to if Greene was in jail or not during that time, but I think it could be Gunnels as well.

    • Inquisitor says:

      KP;
      Do you know anyone that has a widow’s peak as dominating as that with long thick hair like Greene has with their hair parted on the side as much as the sketches depict? Ask someone that does people’s hair. It just doesn’t work. Wishful thinking does not apply.

      • JN says:

        Of course there’s going to be a a shade of things off. Ok Hastings eyes “ as mentioned” are squinted. I’d say the Composites the eyes are a tease squinted . That being said the sketches were from 1977 . I still say there isn’t even a close comparison to who this was. Greene didn’t part his freaking hair. Give me a damn break. Greene didn’t own a sports jacket . Greene was very very very poor and not kept. From the witness, the suspect was clean cut , husky build. Husky didn’t mean fat ass in 1977 . Hastings I would call lean. Could be considered athletic for 1977 standards. But he definitely was clean and had the capability to wear and obtain a sports jacket .

        What needs to be found out is. What did Hastings drive back then? Did Hastings have a tan jacket. A khaki jacket? Did Hastings know Chris Busch? Can anyone prove that he did? Where did Hastings vanish to in April of 1977? Was he institutionalized at sister Mary’s mental hospital? Did brother Tom own a shot gun?

      • KP says:

        Your comment seems quite aggressive and I have no idea why. Why in the world would it be ‘wishful thinking’ to say a sketch could look like Greene? I think the eyes are totally different than Hastings’ eyes, and if you removed the hair, I don’t think the composite looks like Hastings. That is just my opinion, and it is only in reference to the pictures shown in this post. I have seen others where the Hastings high school photo looks more like one of the other sketches.

        In answer to your question, my son has a strong widow’s peak and it is totally hidden when his hair is parted on the side and a little longer, that is what made me think of it.

        • Inquisitor says:

          KP;

          This whole thing of Greene suddenly parting his hair on the side although his photos show he never had it that way. The entire thing of conveniently having him out of jail during Tim’s abduction once again although it was already covered that there is not a single shred of evidence or any type of record trace that shows it. Besides he had no money so who bailed him out? Call it aggressive if you like but it is ‘wishful thinking’. Opinions are opinions but Gunnels does not look like the sketch at all. No idea where that came from plus maybe he died his hair dark during Tim’s abduction? I guess maybe we’ll throw that possibility in there as well.

          Now I asked a few people that do hair for a living about widow’s peak and long thick hair as I was curious. Depending on how thick the hair and how long the bangs are depends on how well it stays in place. So there is a factor to it. To have it as much to the side as the sketches show is very hardly likely. Put it that way.

          What’s the use? OK I guess the sketches can be anyone and the witnesses descriptions, OK maybe they were off some as well.

          • KP says:

            I don’t know why you see this as an argument, I thought the comments section was for open discussion. I have no idea if Greene was in jail or not (I wish I could remember where I read that he was not in jail though), and I am not saying the composite is him. I am just saying I don’t see the resemblance everyone else does between Hastings and that composite (in those 2 specific pictures, I do in others). I don’t have a specific horse in this game, I just want the horse to pay (which is unlikely since so many are dead). Personally, I think Hastings was involved and I wish like hell that someone could bring him in. Time is ticking though.

            Regarding the hair, I am guessing if someone is going to commit crimes, they would do their best to not look like themselves, and could possibly even wear a wig. (Like Lamborgine did as I understand.) Also, if you were going to kidnap in Birmingham, you gotta dress the part of affluence as opposed to greaseball. I was a 10 year old girl living in the area when Tim was taken, and there is no way I would have gone anywhere near Busch. But I can see the Gunnels being a lure aspect as you would see a teen as non-threatening (or less threatening). If Greene was somehow out of jail, there is no way he would approach someone looking all slimy in Birmingham. Hell, Hastings could have loaned him a sports coat. Before you get all angry, I am not saying he did it or was out of jail. Again, I have no idea.

            To tell you the truth, I don’t even pay attention to the composites as memories are often wrong. When I think of Hastings, I look at the history of Busch and Greene along with the proximity Hastings lived to Busch and also the issues Hastings had with the polygraph. Not to mention all he said to Helen that was overheard by Alpena Witness. I don’t know how LE doesn’t try to bring him in other than they are committed to the cover up.

            I’m not going to engage on this point anymore as you seem to have some preconceived notion that I have some odd ‘wishful thinking’ about Greene, which I don’t even understand.

            • Inquisitor says:

              KP;

              Please accept my apologies. I’m sorry.

              Anyone who has been thru the FOIA documents to any extent can see a cover-up going on with this case. Both Busch and Hastings investigation are far more than questionable filled with cover-up written all over them. So many cans of worms that no one ever wants to open or admit to.

              We don’t know who anyone is on here. There are some in law enforcement that will do anything they can to steer Cathy off at looking at Hastings. There are even others that are professional that worked with Cathy that will steer and make anything that makes Hastings a suspect look silly to her audience. Your previous posts seemed to make me suspect that from you. I was wrong but that is sure how I read it. The last thread on here had someone claiming that 10 out of 10 professionals in the law enforcement and court system insist that the sketch does not look like Hastings. What kind of a hint was that? Maybe for Cathy to drop this? From there I suggested that Cathy could post the photos and sketches which she did with this thread. It was a bad idea on my part and I totally regret it. Now others here are accusing her of starting conspiracies and the such. There is just no end to this.

              I’m not going to expand on this anymore. I hope you understand. Sorry to everyone.

              • cathybroad says:

                No apology necessary. Hastings knows; he is not just some “unusual” freak. I am never backing off of him. Read the 2009 polygraph report by Steve Duncan of Georgia Highway Patrol. I don’t care who “we” is. Retired law enforcement? So what. Court system? Right. Lots of help. I don’t believe you are who you say you are anyway. Read that fucking polygraph report and especially the part where Gray himself describes Duncan’s offer to keep Hastings until MI could obtain a warrant. If Hastings was 10 miles from Hunter-Maple Pharmacy on March 16, 1977, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have knowledge.

                If you want to get down to brass tacks, it doesn’t matter where that monster Greene was on March 16, 1977, either. If he was out on the street after the arrest in Flint, somebody really screwed the pooch. If Greene was in the Hunter-Maple parking lot that doesn’t mean Hastings was not and it doesn’t mean Hastings wasn’t a child trafficker for the child sex/porn ring affiliated with GM employees and others in Oakland County, or that he does not have knowledge of one or more of the OCCK murders. As criminologist Dr. Michael Arntfield has stated after a review of this case, it is obvious multiple people were involved in these four murders. Look him up, retired law enforcement/court people. Want to compare credentials?

                More importantly, I am not backing off of where the real focus should be. L. Brooks Patterson, Dick Thompson, others in that office and in Genesee County, Robert Robertson, every MSP investigator who has ever touched this case.

                A conspiracy is a secret agreement/plan between two or more people to do something unlawful or harmful. The “secret” part makes it hard, but not impossible to prove or establish. People tag on “theory” so now it is a conspiracy theory. A carefully thought-out explanation for a secret agreement toward an illegal end. But the average person uses “theory” to make an explanation for a conspiracy sound like babble. More gaslighting. “Oh, it’s just a conspiracy theory!” Guess what? It is actually a conspiracy.

                If some little group has some information or proof, time’s up. Let’s hear it. As some have said, law enforcement cannot be trusted in this case. So put some sunshine on your info and post it here.

                • Christina E Goodwin says:

                  I was attacked by one of these men in the summer of 1977 in Huntington Woods. I was screaming as he was trying to drag me into his car by my hair. Someone nearby called the HW police (who did absolutely fucking nothing but drive me home. I think they thought it was my fault). 2 neighbors ran out as the police arrived and he got away. I will never forget the look of disbelief on his face that I got away. NEVER. This is the first time i have written about him except in therapy. Catherine Broad please contact me. I think the information I have may help the case.
                  christinagoodwin@live.com or cthegood@live.com

              • JN says:

                You know I’ve been thinking this for a very long time . There is no question that people at be has been trying to steer Catherine away from John Hastings. It’s pretty quite obvious. There’s too many people to mention . They use every excuse to why John boy isn’t a viable suspect. Everything from Helen lied to Hastings has no prior pedophile charges. Hey assholes, criminals crimes have to start somewhere. Ted Bundy didn’t have a criminal record before he became a serial killer. If you put Hastings at Hunter Maple pharmacy on March 16, 1977 at 8:30pm , he wasn’t there buying nail polish.

              • KP says:

                So I am a actually going to respond after saying I wouldn’t… 🙂

                Just for background…I grew up right by one of the victims and was terrified growing up. I have followed the case forever- I read all of Helen’s postings from way back when and for the longest time didn’t know who “John” was, but I couldn’t figure out why people didn’t take her seriously. (I didn’t know her whole backstory back then).

                I later came across Mr. King’s blog and then Cathy’s blog and watching all this unfurl has been shocking. I have read every page of the FOIA docs and remember thinking when I read them “why the eff hasn’t anyone followed up on Hastings when he so blatantly failed his polygraph in Georgia”.

                In all honesty, I did not mean to stir the hornet’s nest or anything, I just don’t think that one picture of Hastings resembles that composite real closely. The composite looks more rugged or something that I don’t see in Hastings. But if you take his high school picture and put it against one of the other composites, I totally see it. That hair… Even the hair he has now resembles it. I have said that he doesn’t strike me as a mastermind, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t involved. The way he was pretty much bragging to Helen and kind of ‘claiming’ credit made me think that Busch and Greene were the main guys and Hastings/Gunnels were more assistants, but Hastings wanted to make it seem like more. But that is just my theory, I obviously have no proof of anything.

                I recognize we don’t know who any of us are, and this whole case strikes emotions in everyone. I somehow missed the 10 out of 10 law enforcement professional opinions on the sketch- your reaction makes more sense to me now. I’m sorry I ever gave the impression I could be part of the LE that is covering things up!

                Thanks for your response, and you don’t have to be sorry to everyone. You just want one of the biggest living leads out there to be followed up on, as do I…

            • Anonymous says:

              I agree with you that some people get nasty & argumentative and it shouldn’t be the case. I will always believed CB & GG with the Vega were at Hunter Maple in 3/77. I also believe there were other pedophiles in the parking lot as well assisting. I think GG talked about what a cool skate board or sports and because it was such a warm day & TK won first place on his science project & he got to stay home alone, his guard was down, bam, blitzed into the Pontiac & bam, off goes the Vega. Just my theory. Doesn’t make it right, Doesn’t make it wrong. Again, don’t know why people don’t consider that CB had the white stripe custom painted on his Vega and that an elderly witness seeing the car from a side view would easily think it was a Gremlin. McNamee had a bald head & that sketch doesn’t show it.

  11. JN says:

    We can debate on who these composites for another decade;however, I don’t think Hastings has another decade left in him. Now we can’t do anything with Greg Greene. He’s playing with Satan these days. That being said. We have Johnny Soco living in Hickville USA. He’s 72 and it questionable shape. We have Vinny Gunnels most likely hiding in the mountains in Wyoming with his brother. We have Sloan rotting in prison and refuses to open his yapper. We have Hastings who failed a polygraph in 2009. There’s no denying this. We have Hastings who’s admitted to killing those kids. Two witnesses hearing his confessions. Ok let’s say he’s off his marbles and lied. What kind of sick mind would lie about killing kids? Should that person be on our streets? Now we can’t question Busch, Greene, Norberg or Peter , Paul , Mary or Harry, but we can nail that fucking Ass hole Hastings to the ground before he meets his buddies in hell.

  12. Jack Straw says:

    Just food for thought on JH….

    CB was “suicided” back in 78, most likely because he was a “loose end” and his companions and/or LE were afraid he would talk. GG was put away for life on CSC charges. Maybe McKinney was also killed, because he knew too much about these crimes. That is speculation though.

    But in the light of all of this, JH was somehow allowed to walk free and promptly spilled his beans to Helen. I’m not saying JH was not involved, but if he was really the key to all this, I wonder why he has not been 6 feet under since the late 70ies ??!!

    • JN says:

      It’s really quite simple why he’s not dead . He bailed out of the area. First headed to northern Oakland county and then Georgia

      • cathybroad says:

        They couldn’t kill everybody. Enough of the players got taken care of that it sent a message to all the others who participated or had knowledge. Richard Lawson and Ted Lamborgine left town but didn’t get offed. Arch Sloan is still alive. Vince Gunnels is still alive. If you take the position I do, that Hastings was a “hanger on” in the child snatching biz and did in fact hang around Busch, he easily has knowledge but those looking to silence people might not know the extent of his knowledge or possible participation.

        No matter your stance, that 2009 polygraph and interview of Hastings in Georgia warranted additional interrogation and investigation and Garry Gray and Dave Robertson at the MSP shut that down. Rather than fight over composite drawings, explain that move by the MSP.

        • JN says:

          Sloan is alive but he’ mine as well be dead. He’s rotting in prison for life. Lawson is dead . Gunnels blames drugs to why he can’t remember from one day to the next. Lamborghine declared God has forgiven him and Gods the only one that needs to know his wrong doings.

          💯 Hastings polygraph from 2009 warrants for him to de under a microscope. There’s too much to mention on this freak of nature.

  13. Inquisitor says:

    KP

    We all see things different and I still see very strong resemblance to Hastings. Not just subtle but much more than just coincidental and matches more closely than any of the other suspects including Greene. However I agree with your observations as well as far as slight differences in eye slant and the such. I see much of that as just nit picky details but that is just me

    What is interesting is the fierce look that you described which is something that I always sensed in the sketch as well.

    I can picture him running into the woman in the pharmacy who claimed he acted very suspicious running out the door and of course we have the Poly story also which I believe happened hours earlier. In the book Wolf in Sheep Clothing they described how there were two witnesses at the pharmacy. As I recall the police were working with both witnesses trying to produce sketches from each. The one in the parking lot I believe was the famous sketch we’re referring to while the other (From inside the pharmacy) could never produce a sketch adequately as she was uncertain of her memory what he looked like exactly. Eventually somehow she saw the other sketch and said yeah that’s him. So there was only that one sketch produced by both witnesses as far as I know. Looking back it might have been a huge mistake by police for her to see the other sketch. Maybe that witness couldn’t quite capture that fierce look that the other witness was able to describe in related sketch?

    Helen discussed this sketch as well on occasions. She always said that when John went into this strange trance he would have that look. I think she referred to him eating bananas at those times or revisiting things with his OCCK memories. I believe I recall something in the FOIA papers in regards to him freaking out over something making that look with police as well. I will always wonder now what the Georgia polygraph examiners really witnessed. Maybe he went into one of those strange trances with them? I guess we will never know.

    Some people described John as maybe having autism. I have no idea how that comes into play on any of this.

  14. JN says:

    Let’s be perfectly clear here. IF ITS PROVEN that it was Hastings that bumped into Polly at Hunter Maple early in the day on March 16, 1977, there’s no doubt that it was him that was there hours later. There’s no coincidence here. You put that bastard anywhere near Hunter that day and it’s him. It’s him anyways . I’m just making a point. A very very strong point. If you disagree, we’ll then you are a dumb fuu&@

    • Inquisitor says:

      I agree if that if it could ever be proven that Hastings was there earlier and ran into Polly that it was very likely him later that night described by witnesses and sketch as OCCK. He was obviously scouting for victims and maybe even focused on Tim in particular. Polly could very well be the most important witness to this whole thing but the problem is though that she was completely blown off by police because her story did not include a Gremlin. They completely ignored her many attempts she tried to contact them. So there is no police sketch and not even a detailed description what he looked like from Polly. As far as Helen and Casual Observer’s story collaborating on Polly, it was completely destroyed because Helen was also lying about things as she would go along. She was known to stretch things a bit to put things in her favor. So there is so much uncertainty what is true and what is not that the Polly story must be completely discarded.

      That is the best I can describe it but there are others that know this better and in more detail than me.

      • Judi Coltman says:

        First, JN, how can it possibly be proven that it was JH who bumped into Polly and then circled Poppleton Park? She is deceased. And LE at EVERY TURN dropped the ball on her, first with her initial call on March 17th or 18th and then each time she contacted them thereafter. Was it Keystone Coppery or intentional? I don’t know. They had an opportunity again when they had cause to wire tap her phone due to calls coming to the house concerning Timmy’s murder and, instead, focused only on the calls which stopped.

        The description I was first given of that day (March 16, 1977) came from her memory that was already 6 years old. Could she have described Hastings? Yes. Did she describe any attribute of Busch? Greene? Gunnel? No. She could have described a few of the other pigs listed above because we don’t know enough about their appearance or dress in 1977.

        And, yes, Polly’s role in the day of March 16, 1077 and the weeks following have to be discounted because Helen, in her quest to make Hastings THE ONLY suspect tainted the truth to nudge it, then FORCE it into her narrative by selecting verbiage, drawing conclusions that had no proof and out and out lying. For someone who said she wanted these murders solved, she spent a lot of energy shutting down the possibility of any other suspect. The ONE thing she did have was her witness to the conversations, known as Alpena Witness. He was credible and I imagine he has suffered at the lack of “closure” (I hate that word) on these cases. He spent a lot of his own time and energy speaking with LE and was a heavy part of why Hastings was questioned again in Georgia, given a poly that he failed and yet. . . here we all are stuck in the same spot.

        Somewhere above, Cathy responded to the age old argument of where was Green that day:

        If you want to get down to brass tacks, it doesn’t matter where that monster Greene was on March 16, 1977, either. If he was out on the street after the arrest in Flint, somebody really screwed the pooch. If Greene was in the Hunter-Maple parking lot that doesn’t mean Hastings was not and it doesn’t mean Hastings wasn’t a child trafficker for the child sex/porn ring affiliated with GM employees and others in Oakland County, or that he does not have knowledge of one or more of the OCCK murders.

        They could have all been in the area of HM that afternoon and evening. Settling on one over another is a mistake. Enough of those have been made already. Hastings is alive and they know where he is.

        • Inquisitor says:

          Judi;

          Great post, great discussion and thanks for explaining. I really struggled to try to explain the Helen dilemma.

          I’m just curious. When Polly did discuss this was it ever in regards to the OCCK composite sketches well known back at that time and the main one at the top of this thread. Did she ever refer to those sketches in any way when she talked about who she saw? Seems that was the only reference point she would have had back at that time.

          • Judi Coltman says:

            The only composite that was ever discussed at any length was the original (2, I think) drawings – the one where the guy had mutton chop sideburns. To that end – she said the man she saw did not have the sideburns that she recalled. And really, those sketches were all we had to go on for quite some time as they were the sketches published and circulated all over Michigan.

            The Helen dilemma. Unfortunately, her desire to be the one to produce the smoking gun (one of her phrases) and her ego got in the way, putting her credibility in doubt, essentially, paving the way for 1) Any cover-up involving LE. She was the perfect foil with her dubious character 2) Making any truth in Hastings’ involvement appear “made up”.

            • Inquisitor says:

              Did they ever find a record of Polly’s initial call or was there any inquiries on it? Maybe it went to the same place as all the other great tips.

              • Judi Coltman says:

                No. I think she was in among the 300 early tips to Birmingham police that were “accidentally” erased. And, when I contacted Gray and Robertson about the phone tapping asking if there was a record of that, I was told that unless I had a report number, there was no way for them to check. So long, have a good day. Pretty sure by then someone had hacked my emails and knew with whom I was communicating. I won’t even go into the Don Studt show.

        • JN says:

          Judi, I was just saying that IF it was Hastings that ran into Polly earlier that dat at HM , The % of it being him being the one there later in the evening is quite probable. At least in my opinion . As I know you know much about Helen and her fabrications have to be considered. Does it discredit her completely or did she have a reason for her fabrications? Like you mentioned the Alpena witness can’t be discredited. While Hastings very well could have been lying or trying to make himself more relevant than he was, we still must not be ignored. I totally understand that we MUST look at all suspects. I know I look at TImmys abduction more closely than the others. I think it’s because there were actual witnesses at his sight.

          • Judi Coltman says:

            Does it discredit her completely? It shouldn’t – even the worst human in the world has done something kind for someone sometime. Just because Helen had a disreputable past and a record does not mean she was wrong about Hastings. She had a reason, as I posted above. Ego.

            • Inquisitor says:

              For many years Helen was the only one on on the internet covering this case. She was first to have articles, radio show and even the composite sketch above on line. As crazy as it sounds, she thought she owned the OCCK case as she became more known for it. It seemed like there became more small groups of on line detectives discussing the case and showing extreme jealousy over Helen’s popularity raging wars against her. As some of us now may recognize her suspect as a viable suspect all along, most did not. She felt she could lie to manipulate so long as her suspect was the one on top. Eventually the truth of her suspect would come out for her or so she thought. She probably used it as bargaining chips for the cops on occasion making her look even more nuts. All this time the cops thought the things was made up to either make money or fame for her self. Sadly even now there are some that can’t shake off this surface stuff about her and see things for what they may actually be.

        • Inquisitor says:

          Judi;

          Buried in this is one last comment. What you say about Alpena Witness seems quite accurate. Base on his interview with Andy he really did go out of his way to talk to the police while they made a big joke out of it. Well there sure doesn’t seem to be anything funny about those Georgia polygraph results. It just makes it all the more ironic and pathetic combined as something is seriously wrong about all of this. You make very valid points on everything and appreciate the help explaining things as it’s difficult to convey.

  15. KP says:

    Those sketches are burned into my brain as they were everywhere, and they always terrified me. Gosh I wish video cameras were around in the 70s…

    I often wonder if Busch was offed by his own family. They had to know that their bailing him out and paying people off would come back to haunt them. Could H Lee really risk his son being a convicted pedophile, let alone a serial killer? Not to mention if he had ties into those rings, he couldn’t risk being outed himself. Plus, I don’t think there was any sign of forced entry into the house if I remember correctly. I know Greene ‘died’ oddly in jail, hard to know what happened there. If he was bragging about killing kids, maybe the inmates had their own form of justice.

    I believe that if there was some kingpin out there killing the whole crew, Gunnels would have been one of the first to go as would Hastings. Greene didn’t die until the mid 90s, which was a long time after Busch. I see them more as isolated incidents, but that is just me.

  16. Victor says:

    Cathy, I beg your pardon if this is a stupid question, as I doubt this idea has not crossed your mind yet, but isn’t Doug Wilson still alive? I believe his assessment could put an end to this discussion. Furthermore, can’t any of the three kids that were with Tim that evening remember seeing or even talking to anybody? Maybe responding to a stranger asking for directions? I always wondered how this piece of shit managed to befriend Tim and convince him to willingly get in the car in such a short span of time, so it just occured to me, after reading one of the commentaries mentioning how we can be sure the person had been around the area for hours scouting for victims, that it certainly wasn’t his first attempt, or at least not his first move. I have a feeling he engaged in conversation with Tim under some sort of guise beforehand, at the park or when he was walking home from the park, made Tim feel at ease with him and, gaining his trust, it was probably easier to find some excuse to “give him a ride” when they “coincidentally” met again at the parking lot. When Polly saw him driving in circles around the park, he was probably watching the four boys and waiting for them to part ways so he could approach at least one of them alone. This makes me sick.

    • Inquisitor says:

      Victor;

      No one else ever responded to your great post.

      All very valid points!

      I’m absolutely disappointed that the Birmingham Police did not jump at the chance to talk to Polly more. I believe they only did the first time and never got back to her. Someone that observed something different and earlier and as odd as she experienced is almost screaming for attention. It was my understanding that she tried contacting Birmingham Police on numerous occasions after and no one ever cared to follow up on it. If they did maybe this case would have been solved back then. Birmingham still hasn’t explained all the missing tips they lost as well. No idea if they ever talked to any of the boys that were with Tim earlier in the day. Seems like the odds are probably not.

      To Doug Wilson or any of his associates. Please give some input as we would appreciate it. Would like to know the truth over a cap being worn by one of the suspects he saw and how it was not in the sketches unless that was just a bogus rumor.

    • cathybroad says:

      Victor, not a stupid question at all. I will try to get him the photos/composites and see what he says. Memory is a tricky thing, so we will see what happens. Polly died many years ago. She could have added a lot, but police blew her off many times over the years.

  17. Sean says:

    The dispute about the sketch made me think about the hairs found on the victims. While a lack of a DNA match between the hairs and suspects like Busch and the others doesn’t prove they were involved, it doesn’t disprove anything either. I can’t imagine multiple people *not* being involved in these crimes. Hastings, Greene, Busch…they all could have played a part. Has the task force completely ruled out Busch? And if so, is it just because of the lack of a DNA match?

    I’m reminded of the 1967 kidnapping and murder of Eileen Adams in Toledo. Robert Bowman kept her in his basement before murdering her and leaving her body in a cemetery in Michigan. His wife found her in the basement, at that point still alive, but never said anything to the police until the 1980s. She was apparently too afraid of her husband.

    I imagine one or more people apart from the murderer(s) were aware of the children being kept somewhere, especially considering how long Kristine Mihelich was kept. What I can’t understand is how no one can come clean (Lamborghini, Gunnels, etc.). I guess that’s on their consciences, but what do people like Lamborghini have to lose? Certainly not their reputations.

  18. Cory Williams says:

    We can “Stratego” the shit outta this case til the cows come home, but since liberal progressives have tied the hands of cops many times thru voting over the last 40 years, solving this case became not only beyond difficult, but impossible!!!

    JH, CB, GG, AS and many others may have given it up when the police could actually do their jobs!!!!

    Time to ask; how far are you really willing to go to get confessions again??
    It’s easy, just need support

    Cory

    • JN says:

      Cory, I know you say that liberals have tied the hands , but conservatives have been running Oakland county for 40 years. L. Brooks was a hard nosed conservative. What confessions are you referring to again? JH confession to Helen? I think at this point we need confessions to a grand jury . That being said “ thanks Cory for your public service and your pursuit of justice in this case”. It’s a damn shame what was kept from you . I still have hope.

    • TD says:

      Any chance OCCK could be someone other than the already identified suspects? Much focus on these guys, wondering if at some point through DNA match, someone will be identified. Or, never identified if the OCCK has no living relatives who undergo DNA Testing, because they may have awareness or involvement.

      • Inquisitor says:

        I don’t think anyone in their right mind can ever rule out that possibility completely.

        • TD says:

          I haven’t researched the sex/porn ring that General Motors employees were supposedly involved with. Lots of mentions. I have spent some time researching Chris Busch and associates. I’ll google it and see what I come up with. Just General Motors employees, or anyone else involved?

  19. Inquisitor says:

    Cory, of all the investigators on the OCCK in the past, I have the highest respect for you.

    FYI, In my previous posts regarding professionals trying to steer Cathy and others away from JH being a viable suspect, I wasn’t referring to you. However, there is someone that’s close to this case that has tried everything. He will occasionally bring up this supposed fraud Jill Fund Drive that Helen supposedly made money from. It is not true and has never been true but as many times as he is corrected, he still refers to this. He should know better as he has access to such records if they really did exist. Everyone knows that Helen had fraud charges but they were never related to that. He uses that as a way to derail any JH consideration for the case and has been for years. There are others but it becomes pointless to cover and you would already know them.

    Here is something that is so ironic about JH.

    1) Helen claims that JH was reading and had many books on serial killers (Bundy was one she mentioned the most)

    2) When JH family members are questioned about it they all deny that JH ever read any books on serial killers.

    3) When JH is questioned in Georgia he brings a book on serial killers

    Wish you the best and thanks for supporting Cathy!

  20. livoniaguy says:

    See this link of the OCCK sketch at about the 5 minutes mark:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzk55lEGBbo&t=315s

    LE thought he had blue eyes. The suspects with blue eyes are Hastings, Busch and Sloan. Greene, Lamborgine did not have blue eyes.

    • Inquisitor says:

      Great post livoniaguy as always. I would believe the suspects colors eyes would be accurate as they probably came from police reports and is a key ID on such things as drivers license. On the other side, It’s too bad no one has ever seen the original police reports from the pharmacy by the witnesses. Of the 2 witnesses at the pharmacy that day the one in the parking lot may may have been a distance away but the other in the pharmacy ran into the guy I believe as he was running out so very likely the color of his eyes came from her would be evident as she was up close to him. I was waiting for someone to come along on here and just say that Greene wore contact lens that day to throw everyone off. lol

  21. Inquisitor says:

    That would sure be something else if a confession was already been made and it’s been sitting on DVDs in Gray’s basement all of these years!

  22. Cory Williams says:

    To: JN & Inquisitor,

    Thank you for your comments. I apologize. I was blowing off some steam of frustration over this case. JN is absolutely right about compelling witness testimony in front of a Grand Jury. We did that once in 2011 in Wayne County, then Jessica Cooper copied our lead and kind of threw a wrench into things, resulting in NO indictments. Worth another shot now with newer information out there. Also, maybe new DNA technology will finally provide answers.

    Cory

    PS: As far as confessions, I was thinking waterboarding for these creeps!!

    • KP says:

      Thanks for providing commentary Cory. You mentioned that new DNA technology could provide answers – that is true. But how can MSP or Oakland County be forced to test it, or upload the information they already have? Do you have any thoughts on how to move this mountain?

  23. RD1 says:

    I understand and empathize with, the intense interest in “composites” in this case, but my understanding is that composites are rarely “the cause’ of criminal cases being solved – and that the person(s) ultimately convicted of a given crime frequently don’t resemble any publicized composites – ? Perhaps Det. Williams has a more professional understanding about this.

    With respect to OCCK, and four apparent abductions, I’ve sometimes wondered if a major obstacle to catching the b*stard(s) “in the act” (4 times!) might have been – that the expected and publicized abduction scenario; what people were asked to report and might expect to have witnessed – wasn’t what really happened.
    My suspicions greatly heightened, after it was announced that the DNA from one of Chris Busch’ teen victims (Gunnels) was at that time the only evidence of that nature, to be verified in the case! Was anyone expecting THAT?

    How did someone manage to snatch 4 children, in public places, without anyone witnessing a distressed child crying out as some adult was dragging/pulling them into a vehicle? One time seems plausible, perhaps two times…but after that there’s massive publicity (yes?) about the case and the classic child abduction scenario – with parents even discussing that (what to do if some MAN tries to grab you, or lure you into their car) – as in the case of your brother Tim.
    But still, the 3rd & 4th victims made no attempt to save themselves?

    Or is it possible that what really happened, in all four cases, just doesn’t resemble that classic scenario at all? And that what really happened wouldn’t have caused the victims, or any other child, to believe they were in danger? For example, if victims were approached by another juvenile – on foot – and asked to “come around back, (whatever that might mean in a given setting) you’ve gotta see this!”, and subsequently got into a vehicle out of sight from random passersby, BY CHOICE – because the driver was a teen boy and not “some man”?

    Is it possible, that Tim King might have been approached in such a manner – by a boy he would have recognized from something safe & comfortable in his life, like the juvenile baseball leagues? A boy who perhaps was abused by both Greene and Busch, and subsequently recruited by Busch or his ‘proxy’, specifically to lure some other kid from the leagues? Or some other scenario that no one who witnessed it in passing would bother reporting, because it couldn’t have anything to do with an ADULT snatching a child – in their mind?

  24. markmorton says:

    Every so often I post my ongoing theory (which I’ve posted before) on this case so as not to be overlooked in the Hastings, Busch, etc. debates,

    Those guys are obviously bad dudes, no question. So I hope they all get what they have coming. Trust me I don’t have any empathy for any of those monsters. But I don’t think any of them are the OCCK. I’d be perfectly content to be wrong.

    I’ve been studying this case since 1982. My opinion is that the long standing FBI classifications need to be considered.

    This was clearly an organized serial killer. Look it up if you want the FBI definition. This killer was smooth, and could easily build a rapport with these kids. That’s why there are no reports of kids kicking and screaming. Through a ruse and/or an ability to put folks at ease these kids didn’t feel threatened at all. This is like Ted Bundy at Lake Sammamish.

    Control of the victims is what turned him on, not sex. And he could cover his tracks very very well.

    This guy would never scare anyone on first appearances. He’s probably clean cut, maybe even attractive to most onlookers. And he has his approach down. He’s very smart. Likely educated and could even be a white collar worker.

    The FBI points out that serial killers tend to either have a very tight geographic hunting ground or a wide, dispersed geo as they roam. They either kill where they are most comfortable or they keep moving. The OCCK lived right in the middle of this and my take is that he lived closest to Mark Stebbins. The first killing would be in the most comfortable surroundings. If someone looked at every white male, ages 25-34 at this time, that lived within 2 miles of the Stebbins abduction site I’d lay odds the killer was in that group.

    If my analysis proves true, when we find out someday, and I think we will, you will have a lot of people saying they would have never suspected this guy. And like Rader and DeAngelo he very well could have stopped and is still living in the area.

    My best to all of the families involved, I hope answers come some day soon.

    • JN says:

      Your analysis is pin point in my opinion and I’ve basically said the same thing;however, that being said . John Hastings matches the suspect you described to a T. He was educated at Birmingham Brother rice. He was very non threatening at first appearance . As I wouldn’t say he was attractive , I’ve heard of several females who thought differently. From what I’ve gathered with John Boy, he was socially inept in his age bracket and related to children better. That could be a rumor. He was fascinated with serial killers and more specifically “ Ted Bundy “. His Facebook page even has true crime investigation as his likes. He was clean cut. Besides the shaggy hair. Which most weird guys wore their hair back in the 70’s. John Hastings has never been mentioned as a viable suspect . He’s always been disregarded. It’s long over due that he’s under a microscope.

  25. Inquisitor says:

    One last observation to try to convince the 10 out of 10 trained professionals with their keen eyes of a possible JH match. On a post here with discussions about the late Polly (One of the unknown witnesses to the pharmacy courtesy of Birmingham’s lack of investigation) who she saw that day before Tim’s abduction under very strange behavior. The man she saw did not have sideburns like the OCCK sketches illustrate. Well the 1st well known OCCK sketch that Cathy has at the top of this thread has what appears to be sideburns along with heavy shading around the cheeks. If you look closely you will see the cheek outline around the face on both sides. If one looks beyond this and try to vision taking out the heavy shading and side burns, the face matches the photo to the right quite well. We all see different and maybe it’s just me seeing this however one more attempt just for the heck of it.

    • JN says:

      I definitely see different. There were three original composites. The first one , the guy didn’t have side burn lamb chops. His hair was shaggy and kinda greasy “ wet look”. His eyes were deep and evil looking . Looked much like Hastings passport photo. The second composite sketch, the suspects hair went straight back and was tight. This sketch he had lamb chop side Burns. His eyes were blue and he had fuller lips. I personally feel this sketch doesn’t look like John boy at all . Actually , this sketch I don’t think it looks like any of the suspects noted. The last composite sketch, again the suspect had the long thick, blk side Burns. Hair was more clean cut in comparison to the first composite.. I actually wonder how close these witnesses were when they seen the suspect. Could they have mistaken the side Burns? Was he wearing a hat? If he was , then how could you tell what hair style he had?

      • Inquisitor says:

        Very good points and who knows? I wish we knew where all three OCCK composite sketches came from originally. The first was definitely from the pharmacy around 2 witnesses. The other two are unknown and I believe one of those was a witness that saw a person in a Gremlin near Tim’s school which may not even be related to OCCK. It shows how weak LE was towards public relation when they couldn’t even keep that straight with everyone. No idea if it was ever documented anywhere. If it’s in a book somewhere, I missed it. If anyone knows the history of the sketches and where they originated from please pipe in.

      • Inquisitor says:

        JN

        Quote – The first one , the guy didn’t have side burn lamb chops. His hair was shaggy and kinda greasy “ wet look”. His eyes were deep and evil looking . Looked much like Hastings passport photo. – UnQuote

        I believe this is the same one at the very top of this thread that Cathy has alongside Hastings passport pic. Scroll up and look closely. If you look closely at the sketch and follow his chin up along his cheek line it appears to be sideburns starting at about half way up on the side of his face. If not it’s just heavy shading but it looks like sideburns. This is what creates the illusion his face is narrower.

      • Judi Coltman says:

        The first composite I remember was the severe combed back, sideburn guy, then the side view with dark hair. I can’t be definitive but I don’t recall the composite that matches Hastings coming out until possibly the summer of 1977. Here is where memory fails, though.

        • Inquisitor says:

          Interesting as all this time I always thought the mean eye one looking straight at us which Cathy has at the very top was the very first OCCK sketch that came out. It’s the one that seems to be circulated the most in the old newspaper and the one used in the famous wanted poster. Seems to be the one described in book Wolf In Sheep’s Clothing as well although it’s hard to say. So all this time I was wrong on this as I don’t remember the order these sketches came out originally for some reason. I always took the extra dark heavy shading on the face as the artist interpretation of the witness description of ‘“swarthy” which is also another trait which JH has based on people that knew him and other photos of him where it’s very apparent.

    • Inquisitor says:

      Interesting as well is the fact that the Doug Wilson related sketch has no apparent sideburns.

      • JN says:

        The first sketch was the shaggy hair “ greasy hair “ look. No side Burns . Then the slicked, combed back hair circulated . Then the side view with side Burns. The three are definitely different . I personally feel Hastings could have passed with 1 and 3. Not at all with the second Sketch. The second had very full lips, which Hastings didn’t have. Heavy side Burns , which Hastings didn’t have. Now I’m not 💯 which order they started, but iI am pretty sure.

        • Inquisitor says:

          Sadly we have all these OCCK sketches with no documentation where they came from or which witness description they came from. They may not even be all from the pharmacy that day and probably are not. Might be just people that were seen driving Gremlins around somewhere. A strong indication right there just how f’ed up this case has been right from the start.

        • Judi Coltman says:

          I don’t think so but I’m going by memory.

          • Inquisitor says:

            Recall reading somewhere on Helen site. There was a time when Helen was going thru her archives and she had a newspaper clipping of one of the OCCK sketches and the caption was he was seen driving a Gremlin. Perhaps it was all wrong information as usual in newspapers however I believe it was the same one that got into a Gremlin seen at Adams school a day or two before. Perhaps just a collection of different things thrown into one article. I don’t remember exactly and I sure didn’t take any notes on this stuff. Point is though that no one seems to know the source of these sketches. Shotty police work right there and will always be remembered as such. If there is detail information on the sketches out there would like to know where.

  26. Judi Coltman says:

    I don’t know if I can post pictures and I’m on my phone. The first sketch came out March 19th. Detroit Free Press. Big mutton chop sideburns, face straight in view. An updated picture came out in the Oakland Press March 28. The famous picture looking off to the side.

    • Inquisitor says:

      Just saw a follow up post above from Cathy probably from yours. Great information and completely different than I thought all of this time. What is perplexing is what sketches came from who and what weight should be put on each of them? Seems like the task force never bothered to tell the public anything about it. Just like the different cars until years later. One thing for certain is as this played out back at the time, witnesses took some time to come out and sketches might have taken time as well to produce.

  27. Judi Coltman says:

    The third sketch of the longer haired, sideburnless Hastings lookalike, to the best of what I can find, came out sometime around December of 1978 – almost 2 years from the first witness to see Tim talking to a man standing next to a blue Gremlin. It is published in the December 1978 Monthly Detroit.

    • Inquisitor says:

      I still see sideburns on this one as well but no one else seems to see them. Maybe I’m seeing things? Go to his chin and follow his cheek line up along his face. Look closely. You will see what looks like hair along his face. Dark area. It’s not real profound but it’s there. If you try to vision taking out that area (Remove sideburns) you will find John’s twin.

      • Anonymous says:

        Just a thought .. could the sideburns had been fake .? .. if so it could make for a good disguise .!

  28. Inquisitor says:

    Judi;

    Buried and then re-posted at the bottom of this huge thread.

    Buried in this is one last comment. What you say about Alpena Witness seems quite accurate. Base on his interview with Andy he really did go out of his way to talk to the police while they made a big joke out of it. Well there sure doesn’t seem to be anything funny about those Georgia polygraph results. It just makes it all the more ironic and pathetic combined as something is seriously wrong about all of this. You make very valid points on everything and appreciate the help explaining things as it’s difficult to convey.


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