Threatening Victims and Witnesses

Take a listen to Bradley Edwards, an attorney who represented victims of pedophile/predator Jeffrey Epstein, as he describes the threats he and his family had to endure from Epstein and “high places” during his quest to expose Epstein and make him pay for his crimes. In the end, perhaps someone in or near the circles of wealthy, influential, well-known men in Epstein’s orbit made sure Epstein kept silent as well.

Harvey Weinstein had almost as big a bankroll behind his victim and witness intimidation protocol, as well as his stalking and spying on investigative reporters like Ronan Farrow who ultimately revealed him for what he was. In spite of their wealth and resources, both of these men wound up in prison.

How many victims and witnesses in the OCCK and related cases were threatened or somehow silenced? From Cass Corridor to the Detroit suburbs to N. Fox Island and other parts of Michigan and the entire country, there had to have been a trail of threats and intimidation. I am aware of two women who have been stalked by child predators who fear exposure in the past decade. These predators don’t have the resources Epstein and Weinstein had. They are old now and it is easier to get busted. You have managed to skate on CSC charges, child porn charges and child trafficking charges for decades. Do you really want to mess with stalking and threats of or attempted murder? I don’t think prison is a great environment for inmates who have that shit on their resume. Your protectors and enablers are dropping like flies–no one lives forever.

Thank god Bradley Edwards and Ronan Farrow stuck it out and didn’t cave in the face of monied freaks like Epstein and Weinstein. And thank god victims were willing to testify against Ted Lamborgine and Richard Lawson when they were prosecuted and convicted in 2006 in Wayne County for raping kids in the late 1970s. How great would it be if the client/donor list from N. Fox Island was made public without redactions? The horror of realizing who was on that list would be epic. They weren’t all dirty pedophiles from the Cass. I bet plenty of them were dirty pedophiles wearing suits and ties and living neat suburban lives. It is all connected. It is.

15 responses to “Threatening Victims and Witnesses”

  1. A person should be skeptical towards the victims’ lawyers in the Epstein case.

    Epstein’s butler tried to supply the victims’ lawyers with an ace to use against Epstein and others.

    Look what happened to him.

    Instead of using what he offered, they put the feds on him, claim he was selling the blackbook, send him to jail, then he gets mesothelioma, a fast deadly cancer that is easily induced with chemicals.


    If you read the documents from the first set of hearings it looks like the victims’ lawyers and Epstein’s lawyers were from the same firm.


    • Here is a Miami Herald article with a timeline of the Epstein case.

      It starts with details from 2005.

      2006 more details

      2007 more details

      2008 more details

      2009 more details

      2010 more details

      2011 more details

      2012 “March-December: Calling himself a “celebrated philanthropist’’ and a “renowned educational investor,’’ Epstein undertakes a public relations campaign to counter bad press about his sexual exploits. His foundation donates millions to scientific research and sponsors global conferences on ways to achieve world peace and save the planet. He funds cancer and educational research projects around the country.”

      ***2013 and 2014 , no details. Epstein has been rehabilitated?

      2015 more details

      2016 more details

      2017 more details

      2018 more details.

      What is the missing piece?

      April 1, 2012

      September 6, 2012

      Somebody was helping the victims, but it was not their lawyers.

        • I have no idea who resuscitated that, maybe Miami Herald reporters.

          Lawyers and law enforcers always work in groups and are often the type of people who will not go out on a limb unless the limb is already full of people.

          Reporters are bolder sometimes though.

          The Epstein case is very different from the OCCK case, the victims were rebellious teenagers who were conscious of what was going on, and many people consider it not a major crime. Dershowitz wrote a long article promoting that. It’s more of a ‘hillbilly’ type thing than an objective crime if you look across cultures.

          It might be a little off to put the two cases in the same category, poorly raised teens victimized by a billionaire using them for semi official reasons, vs, a group of official and semi official people who commit crimes beyond murder.

          I don’t mean to minimize Epstein’s victims but aside from the girl who tried to flee the island, then disappeared, most of them were probably leading similar lives when Epstein wasn’t using them.

          That one is an obvious exception.

          • One additional point about that Swedish girl.

            If you look in the data dump at the exact pages that are used in media reports, the footnotes suggest it is from a 2016 deposition.

            Does that mean that the information was not known until 2016, as it implies?

            It looks like the information was known much earlier, including known to the victims’ lawyers, and the government prosecutors, and the 2016 deposition was a way to cover the victims’ lawyers from suspicion of collusion with Epstein’s lawyers in the initial deal.

            If that were the only example of seeming monkey business by the victims’ lawyers you could chalk it up to carelessness, but the 2,000 some pages of documents are loaded with indications that Epstein’s lawyers, the victims’ lawyers and the government were all working together to bury the case during the first prosecution.

            In that case of the Swedish girl, the key question is when the incident occurred. If it was after 2012, as is suggested by the 2016 date of the deposition, then the prosecutors, the victims’ lawyers and Epstein’s lawyers are kind of in the clear.

            If it was before 2012 then it looks very strongly like some criminal collusion between the three groups.

            “Rizzo testified that in late 2004 or early 2005, Andersson-Dubin told the unnamed girl to sit on a barstool in the kitchen. She seemed to be “distraught” and “upset,” Rizzo said, “and she was shaking.” She didn’t want to talk, her head was down, and Rizzo thought she was “on the verge of crying.””


            Be very careful with who you trust in cases like that and the OCCK.

  2. It should be understood there WAS a another cunning power broker working to manipulate outcomes at the time of the OCCK.

    L. Brooks Patterson.

    In November of 1975, the underground newspaper The Ann Arbor Sun published a well researched and very public take down of the then Oakland County Prosecutor.  The article is titled “Naked Came the Prosecutor”.

    Looking back over the decades, the opening line written by reporter Maureen McDonald rings like an urgent alarm on the disasters that lay ahead:

    “The darling of the media and leading Young Republican protege, L. Brooks Patterson has parlayed the “evils” of welfare, parole, drunk-driving, drugs and “obscenity” into the most saleable political package the suburban county has ever seen. While Patterson gets great press for his attacks on people who are easily prosecuted and often can’t afford the cost of a trial lawyer. The SUN’s sources indicate that the charismatic young  leader may be looking the other way on tougher challenges like organized crime and political corruption in his jurisdiction.”

    2 months after this article ran, Mark Stebbins was murdered.

    Patterson found his political voice in latching on to useful idiots he could play like a Stradivarius.  In the early 1970’s he rose to prominence exploiting the racial tensions over things like busing and chasing down welfare cheats.  He didn’t just play the race card, he spoiled the whole deck.  He catered to that elite slice of Oakland County, the Bloomfield’s and the Cranbrook’s.  The rounds of golf at Oakland Hills.  The happy hours.  Patterson was able to cultivate that cult of personality because of his hold on and ability to manipulate the Detroit media.  Patterson would conduct a masterclass of beguiling reporters with his camera ready looks, couched in the style of a wise-cracking tough guy who wasn’t afraid of a microphone or television camera.  Outside of reporters like Maureen McDonald, Patterson enjoyed a fawning media apparatus which in 1976 and 1977 essentially created a safe space for the prosecutor to operate well outside of conventional boundaries, including constitutional limits.  

    Patterson’s hands were ALL OVER the OCCK investigation.  

    Notably, Patterson was influential in allowing “psychic sleuth” Bruce Danto to “collaborate” with the task force, a colossal error which essentially ended all chances of solving the entire case.  Patterson would even admit in the following years that the series of traffic stops initiated in ’77 on Squirrel Rd, set up under the direction of Bruce Danto’s “subliminal” messages to the killer in the hopes he would take the bait, were unconstitutional.  He chuckled when relaying that tidbit, as if to suggest he couldn’t quite believe it himself.

    It is important to note that during this time, instead of running his office as prosecutor, Patterson was running for higher office.  He was barnstorming the state in 77 and 78 in an attempt to win the US Senate seat in Michigan.  The only usefulness for Patterson in regards to the OCCK investigation was to perpetuate it, in order to affect more media attention.  The goal wasn’t to catch the killer, the goal was to make everyone AFRAID of the killer, ostensibly so Patterson could swoop in and crack the case.

    Until they didn’t.

    When they found Busch dead after his “suicide” in 1978 you know that their blood ran cold.  They had this guy.  He had been on the radar the whole time.  For crying out loud, Dick Thompson went up to Flint in the middle of a blizzard to interview these guys.  While the scene at Morningside was a little “too” tidy with evidence screaming “I DID IT”, and certainly suggests something off and staged, the conspiracy starts to show some cracks because Patterson would not have missed an opportunity to crack the case and declare they that found the killer, GM and H. Lee Busch be damned.  The problem was that Brooksy, Dick Thompson, Cabot and the MSP apparatus knew they missed the ball and a little boy was dead because of it.  They covered it up to protect and maintain their own careers.  If the truth had been exposed in 1978, L Brooks Patterson’s career, and that of a few others would have been demolished.

    Who can orchestrate a cover up better than the man in charge of actually pressing the charges?  Who requests the warrants?  No evidence – no case.  No killer – no problem.  
    “Maybe he’s dead” they said in ’78.  “Maybe he’s locked up”  It’s all just a bad dream.  Have another drink.  Go back to bed.  

    Remember how quickly the task force folded after Busch’s death…

    After losing the Senate race in ’78, Patterson remained the county prosecutor, occasionally taking on cases himself, crusading against strip clubs and advocating for capital punishment.  Hollow crusades only intended to placate the base.  All while organized crime, child pornography rings and a child killing monster were allowed to roam free.

    Patterson has the dubious distinction of presiding over the county prosecutors office at a time where both the Jimmy Hoffa and the OCCK crimes occurred.  While not necessarily connected, both have obvious ties to different layers of organized crime.  Hoffa’s disappearance traded in the same currency as those with interested in profiteering from child pornography.  And it was all going down in Oakland County.  And L Brooks chose to look the other way.  

    It wasn’t just Cass.  It was Cass Lake.  It was scumbags in suits trading kids like playing cards.  And they had the freedom because they must have known on some level they were protected.

    I too grew up in the middle of that invisible milieu, invisible right up until the bodies started piling up and fear leeched into the bedrooms and bus stops as children were bombarded with confusing and contradictory messages about strangers and trusting adults.  

    The corruption, or lack of will was already baked in.  

    Yes, this case stands as a textbook example of facts falling through the cracks because of infighting among different jurisdictions. Yes, all of this happens against the backdrop of the late 1970’s, an age where the detective work required to solve these crimes was still in its infancy. Multiple mistakes were made.  There was a woeful lack of coordination and cooperation. from the start and continued for two years as the investigation unfolded.  But Patterson was in that very unique position of one being able to disseminate evidence and information as he saw fit – always looking at how it would benefit him.  No deals.  Until there is a deal.

    I was astonished to read that during that time Patterson refused to reach out to your family in person.  It makes sense.  While he might be able to help you, you couldn’t do anything for him.  That to Brooks Patterson amounted to a waste of time. And four families suffered unnecessarily for it.  An an entire generation of (then) children in Metro Detroit remain traumatized to this day.

    Chillingly, shortly before his death, Patterson gave an interview in which he said his “biggest disappointment was that of the Oakland County Child Killer, was never identified.”

    What a choice of words.  He took his secrets to the grave, but subconsciously implicated himself in the process.

    Thank you for your courage in sharing your family’s story.

    • THANK YOU, BRIAN. Somebody gets it and isn’t posting a bunch of distracting stuff. Yes, exactly. THANK YOU. I have hated this man for decades. And so many default back to “well he ran Oakland County really well.” Fools.

        • Qwerty
          I’m pretty sure Cathy was referring to ” Terry” the poster who has a suspect , ” zodiac Jack” who is responsible for every high profile murder in the United States between 1947 and 2006.

          Jack started his murder spree at age 19 with the infamous black Dalia murder , continued on to the zodiac killings , the occk killings and culminating his career with the jonbenet Ramsey killing at the spry 68 years of age.

          • Here’s what concerns me. Going back 15 years to when websites were more like forums and people weighed in on all kinds of things relating to this and other crimes, I always had the sense there were people hiding behind their screens who seemed to have every interest in making sure people went down rabbit holes and were kept “off track.” By this I mean predators, those who as adults back in the day should have come forward and did not, as well as cops who wanted to keep control of the narrative. This was also during a time when some real investigating was finally happening regarding pedophile and child porn rings uncovered during the investigation in to Ted Lamborgine and Richard Lawson. There are still a lot of people out there who have exposure here for not coming forward, for hiding evidence, for manipulating evidence, for lying and yes–maybe one or two who are still alive who have a direct connection to the OCCK murders. I have no doubt some of them track what happens online.

            I have a box of documents–a box–from people who have contacted me or someone in my family to tell us that their father, brother, husband, cousin, neighbor, co-worker, piano teacher, counselor was the OCCK, not to mention every other serial killer from the era as yet unnamed. On paper, all of these creeps are plausible fits for the kind of monster who would commit these crimes. Every one of them. But I’ve always been an Occam’s razor kind of girl. Furthermore, most of the communications are along the lines of “this is confidential information.” I don’t have police powers. And I can’t make police call you back. If you have information, you have to call the cops and keep calling. When they blow you off, then you can contact me and journalists and podcasters. If you just want to unload your suspicions and guilt, I don’t know what to do with that.

            It used to really piss me off when people would try to put all the chess pieces on the board. But now I understand the inclination. If you listen (again!) to Dr. Michael Arntfield on the podcast You Know They Know or in Children of the Snow, you begin to see how a group, as in multiple people, was involved here. There had been rumblings about this online from the very beginning. Those rumblings, I believe, were sometimes from people who were not just speculating. Anyway, take a look at Dr. Arntfield’s credentials and consider that he made himself very familiar with the facts (to the extent we can know them) in this case before opining.

            Then Brian makes the remarks above which I could not have said better myself. What he says and what Arntfield said makes the most sense.

            I don’t care if people want to opine in the comment sections here. I am a little sick of the “you people, the family members, you need to do X or Y.” Really? A couple of motherfuckers in Oakland County drop the ball, add to the pain and ruination and I have to start calling people whose names are in the FOIA documents forty-three years later?! Those two SOBs from the original task force who came out to the Busch death scene in November 1978 wouldn’t speak to Det. Cory Williams when he asked to meet with them after Busch’s name surfaced. Those POS are going to speak to me?! Get real.

            The big picture is very confounding. Yes, I think John Hastings and maybe one of his brothers has knowledge and/or participated. I also think John McKinney should still be under the microscope. The investigation in Wayne County for the Lamborgine and Lawson child rape cases touched on the suburbs, specifically Oakland County, and others, but those monsters are not saying a word. Any of those monsters in the Cass Corridor could be good for these crimes, as could many in Oakland County. There is the little matter of proof.

            This is my opinion: Arntfield is right. Brian is right. It is as simple as that. Are all the players on the board yet? No, and they may never be. I can’t use any more energy putting your man on the board. Maybe you will end up being right. I’m not going to fight about that. It is as fucked up an investigation as you are ever going to find. And Patterson, Thompson, Robertson and Krease (and to some extent, Anger) made sure it stayed that way.

            Get help from another agency? Right. No one is going to touch this. Maybe someone comes forward and does the right thing. Wayne County is the only hope there.

            Speaking only for myself, as painful as this has been–exponentially more painful given what we have learned since 2006–there is some degree of peace that comes from understanding how we got here. That is my purpose in posting the FOIA documents. I’m not going to tell you what to think about those–they speak for themselves and everyone will have a slightly different take. But you can judge for yourself.

            No one knows what, or if, anything has really helped since 2012. The MSP and Oakland County haven’t talked publicly or to my family since and I doubt they ever will. That leaves us, authors, documentarians and podcasters to fill in the blanks. These agencies don’t care. They just don’t. Patterson kept his career path intact; Robertson was fucking promoted after the OCCK investigation. His son became a gatekeeper to that shit decades later when he was assigned to the rejuvenated task force in 2005. Krease killed his girlfriend and then offed himself. Thompson and Anger found ways to live with themselves.

            So, yeah, I would travel to Oakland County and piss on Patterson’s grave, as one of my favorite readers posted after Patterson died. I bet I could get others to do the same. Better set up a video camera at that spot.

            Post what you want, but don’t get into it with other posters and try to stay away from politics. I am not on social media because I cannot resist the fight. It takes every ounce of restraint I have not to take on some of the statements made here or to block people. For now, let’s just leave it as is.

            There will be more to read. Then you will have a bigger picture of this case. Just be warned: if you read it, you won’t be able to unsee it.

      • Cathy-
        Thank you for the kind words. I also wanted to share this YouTube video.
        It is a compilation of stories from CBS news that ran during the evening and morning news in 1977 at the time of Tim’s kidnapping. I hadn’t realized this was out there. At :34 seconds in, there is a sketch that says “Stebbins”. Note how the bangs on the boy are depicted. Almost identical to the drawing found in Busch’s bedroom. Also a little after the 5 minute mark, we see a suspect sketch of a bearded man? WTF?? It’s a dead ringer for Busch. Also Robertson’s interview in the story is revealing knowing what we know now.

        • Brian, can I use your comments in my next post? The comments don’t get read as much as the main posts. You have articulated exactly what I was thinking but could not find the words for it–and you have the history of this man’s career boiled down much better than I ever could have. I can refer to you as “a reader” if you want.

  3. Thanks, Brian. I had never seen that compilation of footage before. “We knew we had a problem but we didn’t recognize it as such . . .” Oh, you had a big problem alright. And there are plenty of living victims who can attest to that. Robertson, Krease, Patterson and Thompson. They knew. Anger knew, too. Thompson is the only one still alive. Last I heard he works for the St. Thomas More Society, working on rights for fetuses. You know, the things that turn into pre-teens like the kind that he and his boss didn’t help protect in Oakland County.

  4. Apparently I haven’t been able to convince some people that the OCCK and the Ramsey cases, just to name two, involved the doings of the 60’s California Zodiac killer. Actually there’s more than ample proof on the Ramsey ransom note available for all to see this fact. Both of these crime series were exactly what he, the so-called Zodiac, threatened to do. One of his death threat documents in particular is called the Paradice(sic) Slaves letter, and on it in each quadrant is a method of committing murder, “By Rope, By KniFe, By Gun, and By Fire.” On the Ramsey note, on the first page, rotate the word “SaFe” 90 degrees clockwise, and you’ll see the dagger. Most of the letter d’s resemble nooses. In the word “warned,” on the second page; the letter r is detailed like a pistol, with perfectly straight lines and edges, which can’t be done with a Sharpie without masking the paper. This Paradice Slaves document has flame details on several of the letters. Two practically identical examples of the words “The,” have this flame detail, the first one is on the lower left hand corner of the first page, and the second one is part of: “The crosshairs (hence Zodiac) not SpeaKing” hint, written backwards at a downward angle, which actually accomplishes multiple meaning, not least of which is Hebrew script writing, being written from right to left, which is one of the 17 ea Jew hints that I’ve pointed out in the past. BTW, that first example of the word “The” is also part of a cascade on words stating: “The I(eye) Jew, early arrange.” And as I’ve pointed out already, the tail of “Spea King” points to the word Tim, phonetically. Years ago and from the primary JT hints, I easily obtained the message: (It) exhausting…daughter watching, SpeaKing daughter being, money killing family think killing Victory!” I suspect that the word “It” was structured to hint at ‘IT’ as an Information Technology Hint. And, quite likely the word BY, refers as a hint towards ‘bytes.’ This last idea was postulated in 1981, which was long before I began studying this stuff.

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